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Elenarie: I'll take being gay any day over being a nationalistic shit in 2015, thank you very much.
So, why you aren't gay then?
Not giving Russia benefit of the doubt or jumping on superiority of a Nordic nation?
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Elenarie: Are you seriously trying to trash talk a Nordic nation?
Post edited October 15, 2015 by Gremlion
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bevinator: the important thing is whether the people spreading the disinformation believe it.
According to poll done last year:
~70% of US citizens believe disinformation
~50% of Britain
~40% of Germany
~21% of Greece - country which is a textbook example of fucked up by EU country doesn't believe that ANYBODY would want to KILL for possibility to join EU. Further backed by Iceland calling back its application.
I don't remember numbers for France, but current riots demand peace with Russia and Holland is forced to take action http://en.news-4-u.ru/the-french-ambassador-declared-the-readiness-of-the-authorities-to-cancel-short-term-visas-for-russians.html

Then there are news like
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/27/eight-spaniards-arrested-fighting-ukraine-pro-russian-separatists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97JUVElJakw - "Merkel nach Sibirien & Putin nach Berlin".
http://i.imgur.com/C5AnGSG.jpg - "Liberate us again"
And my favourite so far
http://i.imgur.com/VI360hJ.jpg
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Trilarion: ...
We still have no proof of those Russian stealth tanks, so you're just parroting what you have be spoon-fed by the western media. That said, I wouldn't be too surprised if Russia was supporting the rebels, just as I am certain that the US was supporting the coup that led to it. Let's not forget that what happened in Ukraine was a violent takeover of the previous government, not a peaceful election or referendum. I would fully support any country that has to secure their interests after a violent coup in an allied country. Should Russia just have stood by and watched as the US and their EU lapdogs marched in on Crimea and took whatever Russia had deposited there for themselves?

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Elenarie: I'll take being gay any day over being a nationalistic shit in 2015, thank you very much.
Sweden YES! Let the cultural enrichment flow. If you want to see what happens when you let foreigners run around unchecked look at the Balkan states who have suffered centuries of Ottoman enslavement. Is that the future you want for your country?

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Gremlion: Actual Russian invasion with the intention of getting country would've ended overnight.
Exactly, just look at how quickly (and bloodless) the Crimean annexation went.
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Trilarion: ...
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HiPhish: We still have no proof of those Russian stealth tanks, so you're just parroting what you have be spoon-fed by the western media. That said, I wouldn't be too surprised if Russia was supporting the rebels, just as I am certain that the US was supporting the coup that led to it. Let's not forget that what happened in Ukraine was a violent takeover of the previous government, not a peaceful election or referendum. I would fully support any country that has to secure their interests after a violent coup in an allied country. Should Russia just have stood by and watched as the US and their EU lapdogs marched in on Crimea and took whatever Russia had deposited there for themselves?

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Elenarie: I'll take being gay any day over being a nationalistic shit in 2015, thank you very much.
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HiPhish: Sweden YES! Let the cultural enrichment flow. If you want to see what happens when you let foreigners run around unchecked look at the Balkan states who have suffered centuries of Ottoman enslavement. Is that the future you want for your country?

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Gremlion: Actual Russian invasion with the intention of getting country would've ended overnight.
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HiPhish: Exactly, just look at how quickly (and bloodless) the Crimean annexation went.
What about Foreigners moving to another nation that wants to become citizens and accept every values of the nation-state he/she moved to?
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HiPhish: As if anything would have change if it turns out that Ukraine shot down the machine. If it turns out that Ukraine shot down the plane it will be twisted into "Ukraine was forced into a civil war through war by proxy, more sanctions for Russia!". If it turns out that the rebels shot down the plane it will be twisted into "Russia sponsored a civil war in Ukraine through war by proxy, more sanctions for Russia!". Either way Russia gets the shaft.
The rebels didn`t have any plane so why would Ukraine shot a missile to it?

The only (highly realistic) reasons I heard were:
- Ukraine aimed the missile to one of their own jets (to practice using BUKs) but the missile change target
- Ukraine found out Putin was in a plane flying over the conflict zone (how courageous of him) and tried to kill him.
- Ukraine shot down the plane on purpose, just to blame the rebels

Come on.
Post edited October 15, 2015 by GabiMoro
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Elmofongo: What about Foreigners moving to another nation that wants to become citizens and accept every values of the nation-state he/she moved to?
I explicitly said unchecked for a reason. If you open your borders for anyone then every kind of person will rush it. There is nothing wrong with helping refugees, but you have to draw a line and figure out who is an actual refugee and who is just joining the ride. Ask yourself, how come 70% of those immigrants are men? Shouldn't it be more like 50% men and 50% women, and possibly even less men because they are more likely to be killed in the war?

And what kind of refugee is too good for Hungary? If I was running from a fanatical cult that wants to cut off my head, I think living in Hungary would be a very good tradeoff.

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GabiMoro: ...
Maybe Ukraine thought it was a Russian jet and hoped to nail it down for proof? I don't know. And as I said, even if the rebels did it, it's a war, you shoot first and ask later. That's why people don't go for a walk in the park in combat zones, you stay out of there unless you have to.
Post edited October 15, 2015 by HiPhish
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Elmofongo: What about Foreigners moving to another nation that wants to become citizens and accept every values of the nation-state he/she moved to?
This is a tricky question.
Basis for mentality forms at very young age (3-5),
After that identity is stable. You can form habits, learn "dos and dont's", but instinctive reactions still would differ from general population. You know, laughing at things that nobody else finds funny, or vice versa.
With the expansion of internet and TV this issue becomes less and less relevant, Golden fund of humankind culture, well, golden, but child stories which grandmothers used to tell, have higher impact.

Personal impression of comparing literature for Russian and European kids (especially adaptations) is that Russian has much bigger focus on teamwork.
"Hero saving the day" in European literature:
Dragon steals princess, knight attacks and kills it, happy end.
"Hero saving the day" in Russian literature:
Lich (yep, Liches are emigrants from Russia, based on Koshey Bessmertny - Deathless, his phylactery was a needle) steals a girl.
Knight goes to old hag for tip, on his way saves 3 animals, gets tip, goes against lich, gets into traps three times, every time one of saved animals help back, kills Lich, happy end.
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Gremlion: Over 300 years Russia invested into finns so much that you was able to attack Russia. Ungrateful pigs.
Let's look at Estonia:
http://i.imgur.com/4yqHh3L.png
Stable growth in USSR, extinction in EU.
15% of population already fled and things are looking even better with EU dumping refugees into Baltic countries.
They did a meeting about this today :)
http://news.err.ee/v/politics/7f15dd7b-39f7-44d5-bdd9-2c4b903b9996/
No jobs, no future.
Estonia has a half decent economy that is recovering well from the global recession, often runs a budget surplus, and has a tiny amount of national debt. Estonia joining the EU is what helped them regain a decent economy. It is not perfect, and has its problems, but is not terrible at all.

All that your unsourced picture demonstrates is that the EU helped stop the decline Estonia had as a result of having strong connections to Russia/USSR during the 90s and eventually helped it stabilise. Or did you think nobody would be able to figure out the EU didn't cause problems a good 12 years before Estonia became a member, well before they even started trying and while their economy was still closely linked to Russia.
Post edited October 15, 2015 by mabrookes
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Gremlion: Over 300 years Russia invested into finns so much that you was able to attack Russia. Ungrateful pigs.
Let's look at Estonia:
http://i.imgur.com/4yqHh3L.png
Stable growth in USSR, extinction in EU.
15% of population already fled and things are looking even better with EU dumping refugees into Baltic countries.
They did a meeting about this today :)
http://news.err.ee/v/politics/7f15dd7b-39f7-44d5-bdd9-2c4b903b9996/
No jobs, no future.
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mabrookes: Estonia has a half decent economy that is recovering well from the global recession, often runs a budget surplus, and has a tiny amount of national debt. Estonia joining the EU is what helped them regain a decent economy. It is not perfect, and has its problems, but is not terrible at all.

All that your unsourced picture demonstrates is that the EU helped stop the decline Estonia had as a result of having strong connections to Russia/USSR during the 90s and eventually helped it stabilise. Or did you think nobody would be able to figure out the EU didn't cause problems a good 12 years before Estonia became a member, well before they even started trying and while their economy was still closely linked to Russia.
No source of the graph, not even a labelled axis. For all we know it could be a graph of number of KGB interrogations in each year.

Assuming it is what we're told though, are we honestly expected to *believe* Cold-War era Russia's reported figures for growth? Ha ha ha ha ha haaa!
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mabrookes: Estonia has a half decent economy that is recovering well from the global recession, often runs a budget surplus, and has a tiny amount of national debt. Estonia joining the EU is what helped them regain a decent economy. It is not perfect, and has its problems, but is not terrible at all.
Estonian economic was tied to Lithuania with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plant
That plant was intended to supply Belarus, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia with energy for energy-intensive plants, like metallurgical and chemical.
Lithuania closed it, and it torpedoed any hope for region.
Imagine, you are wealthy investor, situation:
Would you build a plant in an energy-deprived region?
Would you build a plant in abandoned by most economically active people region (let's face it, people move into Germany for better average wage)?
"Stabilization" is caused by the fact that leftover people are too old and too poor to move.
There are less Estonians now than there were before 1922.
Yes, their GDP is "growing" on money sent by work migrants from wealthier Germany to Estonia. Communicating vessels, there's that.
Plus, Nato pays them for bitching about "evil Russians want to attack us", countless generals want to be paid for "defending freedom"

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mabrookes: Or did you think nobody would be able to figure out the EU didn't cause problems a good 12 years before Estonia became a member, well before they even started trying and while their economy was still closely linked to Russia.
http://i.imgur.com/V5yr1jI.gif

US and EU didn't cause aaaany problem for USSR. Never-ever tried to do... Seriously?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson%E2%80%93Vanik_amendment
^This shit resulted for Russian Federation being under sanctions until 2012 because of the things USSR did in 1974...
Bringing justice since never.
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Crispy78: No source of the graph, not even a labelled axis. For all we know it could be a graph of number of KGB interrogations in each year.

Assuming it is what we're told though, are we honestly expected to *believe* Cold-War era Russia's reported figures for growth? Ha ha ha ha ha haaa!
Oh, shame on me for taking official data with the help of wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Estonia
Same shit is here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Lithuania
Common sense says that planned economic demands very precise numbers, well, for planning purposes.
Post edited October 15, 2015 by Gremlion
Oh, population growth. Thought you were talking economic growth.

I think you'll find the growth tailed off because Russia stopped pumping Estonia full of Russians...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic#Soviet_deportations_and_repressions
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Crispy78: Oh, population growth. Thought you were talking economic growth.

I think you'll find the growth tailed off because Russia stopped pumping Estonia full of Russians...
Yes, stopped pumping full of Russians, full of Russian money and full of Russian equipment.
Without this occupation they started worldwide-known Golden age, studied along with Singapore economical wonder.
/sarcasm

It's hard to talk about economical growth - widely needed medicine and education are parts of "services", in USSR it was provided to everyone from taxes. Textbooks, housing for students from different cities... Still mostly is.
No bullshit like $400 textbooks, unpayable college loans and so on. I used to purchase only notebooks and pens.
If we compare these services - in capitalistic country it would be billions-worth area, with paid lectures, pricey textbooks, lobbying for new test-scantrons and so on VS payments to municipal workers(teachers)+redistribution of textbooks into libraries.
Quality of education... Realistically, depends on teacher. There are people which would make you love subject and absolutely hate. Results show that both USSR and US were on par.

Economically, USSR was killed by attempts to have even payments to industrial and agrarian areas.
US&EU outsourced their agrarian expenses to plantations in Africa/South America, industrial jobs with low added cost - to occupied Japan&Germany post WW2, then, after Khrushev fucked up relations with China, into it.
Kinda hard to compete in "fair market" with people, which underpay to their workers so much that they can't afford chocolate after 20 years of working on plantation.
http://sploid.gizmodo.com/must-watch-cocoa-farmers-trying-chocolate-for-the-firs-1612726978
Post edited October 15, 2015 by Gremlion