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Vainamoinen: snip
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Brasas: Vaina, your conception of capitalism as exploitation is what is a misapplication, although you are clearly following on Marxist footsteps with that.

I am not surprised that you prefer to laugh instead of facing the fact that control of industry and commerce is a major tenet of fascist systems. Heck, in economic terms it is THE tenet. Being anti-liberal they have that in common with communist systems, just like both are inherently totalitarian due to their collectivist social focus.

I do hope that with the increased time that passes from WW2 and the cold war, the easier it becomes to see clearly what a brilliant soviet propaganda achievement it was to conflate capitalism with fascism.

Now to offer some provocation, I estimate that we are 10 years away from some historically ignorant marxist re-inventing "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state".

PS: while digging through wikiquotes to remind myself of the verbatim original, found this one which is a doozy... "We are fighting to impose a higher social justice. The others are fighting to maintain the privileges of caste and class. We are proletarian nations that rise up against the plutocrats."
Or
"When the war is over, in the world's social revolution that will be followed by a more equitable distribution of the earth's riches, due account must be kept of the sacrifices and of the discipline maintained by the Italian workers. The Fascist revolution will make another decisive step to shorten social distances."

Oh, the cognitive dissonance...
Yet in spite of the Allied victory in WWII, and the overwhelming military and economic dominance of the American Superpower that arose from the smoldering ruins -- which has only recently begun to wane -- the world is a chaotic mess, with international peace and security nowhere to be seen. So who do you think is to blame for this?
The Joker?
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Brasas: Vaina, your conception of capitalism as exploitation is what is a misapplication, although you are clearly following on Marxist footsteps with that.
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wpegg: Capitalism at its core, despite all the monstrous responsibilities placed on it by people here, is just about who gets to own things. If you're socialist then you believe the state should own some/most/all of the productive assets, if you're a capitalist then you believe it should be the person/people with the "capital". Both have their place, neither are these bogeymen that people make out.
And if you're an elitist, you want a socialist state with a pseudo-representative form of government that caters to monied interests.
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richlind33: And if you're an elitist, you want a socialist state with a pseudo-representative form of government that caters to monied interests.
That's not true - I'm an elitist and I don't want that.
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richlind33: And if you're an elitist, you want a socialist state with a pseudo-representative form of government that caters to monied interests.
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wpegg: That's not true - I'm an elitist and I don't want that.
Do you consider your life to be inherently more valuable than the lives of those who are socio-economically beneath you?
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richlind33: Do you consider your life to be inherently more valuable than the lives of those who are socio-economically beneath you?
Well, my answer was a little bit tongue in cheek. Though that's not a very good definition of elitism you've given. It's not about the elevation of the self, it's more about believing that those with a "sound view" (very subjective) can bring greater benefit than mob rule and populism.

There's no way one such as you could have found this link for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism

I'm kind of joking, kind of serious. Totally impotent, as far as Elitism goes I'm mostly harmless :)
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richlind33: Do you consider your life to be inherently more valuable than the lives of those who are socio-economically beneath you?
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wpegg: Well, my answer was a little bit tongue in cheek. Though that's not a very good definition of elitism you've given. It's not about the elevation of the self, it's more about believing that those with a "sound view" (very subjective) can bring greater benefit than mob rule and populism.

There's no way one such as you could have found this link for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism

I'm kind of joking, kind of serious. Totally impotent, as far as Elitism goes I'm mostly harmless :)
I think my definition is extremely accurate with respect to the "ruling elite", which is who I am referring to. What you reference is what I refer to as "snobbery", and the difference between the two is something along the lines of the difference between neurosis and psychosis. ;p
Personally, I think we should all just hold hands and sing "kumbaya" and think happy thoughts and we can finally live in a socialist utopia as we've all been dreaming. After all, there's an Infinite Supply of Other People's Money™ we can always use to pay for everything and then nobody has to produce! Happy happy joy joy!

...


OK, time to shut up and get back to work, you proletariat filth. These widgets aren't going to make themselves. If any of you happen to be one of my employees and I find out, you will be fired immediately.
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richlind33: As I said to Starmaker, it isn't ideology that's the problem, it's corruption, and the only socio-economic system that *might* withstand it's corrosive destructiveness is a dictatorship -- but good luck finding a benevolent dictator, and then another, and another, etc., etc., etc.

And again, it's important to distinguish capitalism from crony capitalism, which is really just elitism. Elitism is the real problem, and always has been.
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Gilozard: Yes. But it self-corrects with wars that level the playing field, and frankly I don't think we can avoid a big one.

We've got growing inequality and desperation in multiple socioeconomic strata across most of the Western world, which is part of what's inspiring the retreat into fascism and militarized nationalism.

We've got the US pulling back from the global stage, which has it's good points but also means the Pax Americana is going away as well and there's an international power vacuum.

We've got China with a demographic imbalance and culture pushing it towards aggressive expansion making threatening moves at its neighbors, and then there's North Korea who may pull China into a conflict whether anyone else wants it or not.

We've got natural and man-made disasters destabilizing the center of Eurasia and Indonesia, causing refugee crises and instability across that continent and creating a class of angry, disenfranchised people.

We've got India, which, well, that country's just a mess and that's going to resolve somehow but probably not soon enough to stop a power vacuum from happening.

Then we've got Africa, that pretty much everyone except the Chinese ignore, leading to the Chinese having a stealth takeover well underway in that continent. No one's really considering what Africa might do if the ecological pressures get worse there, but it won't be pretty.

At this point, the only question in my mind is whether the increasingly disastrous natural disasters get us before a major war does.
That's only true insofar as Europe is concerned, but overall, the balance of power became wildly skewed with the emergence of the American Superpower. When it comes to war, the financial elite and international arms manufacturers are mostly on the same page. And when the destruction is over, there's plenty more to be made by financing reconstruction. Rinse and repeat, over and over again.


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yogsloth: Personally, I think we should all just hold hands and sing "kumbaya" and think happy thoughts and we can finally live in a socialist utopia as we've all been dreaming. After all, there's an Infinite Supply of Other People's Money™ we can always use to pay for everything and then nobody has to produce! Happy happy joy joy!
American deficit spending is a very good example of this. Mortgaging the future to pay for the excesses of today.
Post edited January 09, 2018 by richlind33
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richlind33: I think my definition is extremely accurate with respect to the "ruling elite", which is who I am referring to. What you reference is what I refer to as "snobbery", and the difference between the two is something along the lines of the difference between neurosis and psychosis. ;p
I'd have to place those refering to the "ruling elite" along the lines of extreme, and indulgent, paranoia. But hey, if it makes you feel special then enjoy your indulgence.
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richlind33: I think my definition is extremely accurate with respect to the "ruling elite", which is who I am referring to. What you reference is what I refer to as "snobbery", and the difference between the two is something along the lines of the difference between neurosis and psychosis. ;p
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wpegg: I'd have to place those refering to the "ruling elite" along the lines of extreme, and indulgent, paranoia. But hey, if it makes you feel special then enjoy your indulgence.
I could just as easily say that you have your head in the sand, but I won't, because of the subjectivity that you very recently mentioned -- but already seem to have forgotten. o.O
NVM - not playing
Post edited January 09, 2018 by wpegg
One thing I can promise, in the future, robots will treat us the same way that our fellow humans do today. :P
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wpegg: NVM - not playing
You already have, and rather badly.

For an elitist, you seem to be struggling to maintain your poise. Why is that?


BTW, how is it that an Englishman has never heard of the House of Lords? ;p
Post edited January 09, 2018 by richlind33
Won't you need computer experts to set up the labs, engineers and construction workers to build the labs, programmers to code and maintain the computers and robotics, workers to build and design the robots, and any number of other people in the chain? For all the advancement and automation, there are new career paths opening and new needs. Computer Science is a field with a very high starting pay for even a two-year degree and numerous positions open everywhere.

Minimum wage are jobs for teenagers, not to support a family. Capitalism means any single person can go get an education, experience, and/or combination of both and go out and succeed. The only people restricted from this are the legitimately, permanently disabled, which are far fewer than those collecting benefits. Not even the disabled are excluded, a family member owns a business and does better than me with one leg. Another relative has a successful business she built the year she gained citizenship and has no formal education here with a limited ability to write in English.

What will kill Capitalism in this country is the out-of-control welfare state and people expecting more than they're worth. And I don't mean worth as a human being, I mean worth as in skill and expertise they have to offer. It's funny how the countries doing the best economically in the world are the ones who switched to Capitalism and modeled themselves after the United States. If you think Socialism, which is what the left pushes along with Communism, just look at all those mistakes around the world and point out even one country that has been Communist or Socialist for any period of time that is a world leader in its economy or quality-of-life. The fact is our poorest people here live nearly as well as the middle class in most other countries.

This is why the left wants to insult you and ultimately tell you to shut up as soon as you have a differing opinion, they have no good argument against any of this. This is another reason they hold to the strategy of forgetting the past, so you can't see the utter failures countries that have gone that path turned out to be.

And before I'm accused of being privileged or whatever else the radical left will label me as, I was on my own since I was a teenager. I had a job since I was twelve, I received no special funding for school because my parents made too much despite them not being in my life or contributing a penny, and I started from nothing without help. I started out at minimum wage in my career while I attended school full time. I worked my tail off to pay my bills, made sacrifices, and finished my degree with honors. I then earned a good position and continued advancing from there. I earned two more degrees and still owe around $50k in student loans. I worked for every thing I own and every penny I've ever had. I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for a person that is unwilling to improve or work for anything. Nobody deserves a handout and life is not about your constant pleasure and gratification. Fair is fair and you get what you earn.

It is not true Capitalism if only a few are expected to contribute, which is about a third of our population. By that I am referring to those paying taxes. It is unsustainable and needs to change. This new generation of entitlement and no motivation is not going to help anything either.
Post edited January 09, 2018 by Gylfe