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General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 11, 2014
Hey, GOGgers,

We're not perfect, we're exploring new frontiers, and we make mistakes. We thought DRM-Free was so important that you'd prefer we bring you more DRM-Free games and Fair Price was less critical and that it could be sacrificed in some cases. The last two week's worth of comments in our forums (nearly 10k!), show that's not the case. We didn’t listen and we let you down. We shouldn't sacrifice one of our core values in an attempt to advance another. We feel bad about that, and we're sorry. Us being sorry is not of much use to you, so let’s talk about how we will fix it.

One: DRM-free forever. Abandoning fixed regional pricing means it will probably take longer to get some games, but you've made it clear that sacrificing fair pricing for more DRM-free games isn't acceptable.

Two: We will adamantly continue to fight for games with flat worldwide pricing. If that fails and we are required to have regional prices, we will make up the difference for you out of our own pockets. For now it will be with $5.99 and $9.99 game codes. In a couple of months, once we have such functionality implemented, we will give you store credit instead, which then you will be able to use towards any purchase and cover the price of it in full or partially. Effectively gamers from all around the world will be able to benefit from the US prices.

This will apply to every single game where we do not have flat pricing, such as Age of Wonders 3 (full details here), Divinity: Original Sin, and The Witcher 3. If you remember the Fair Price Package for The Witcher 2, this will be exactly the same.

Three: We still intend to introduce the pricing in local currencies. Let us explain why we want to do it and how we want to make it fair for everyone. From the very beginning our intention was to make things easier for users whose credit cards/payment systems are not natively in USD. The advantages are simple because the price is more understandable and easier to relate to. There would be no exchange rates involved, no transaction fees, and no other hidden charges. However after reading your comments, we realized we have taken an important element away: the choice. In order to fix this, we'll offer the option of paying in the local currency or the equivalent in USD. This way, how you pay is always your choice.

Four: You are what matters, and we will be sure to involve you all more in what we're doing and why we're doing it. Let's start by meeting you at GDC - we’d like to invite you to meet us face-to-face Monday the 17th at GDC. Obviously, not all of you can come to San Francisco, so we want to invite all of you to an online event with us early in April to ask us whatever you would like. More details soon.

The bottom line is simple: there may be companies that won't work with us (although we will work hard to convince the most stubborn ones ;). Yes, it means we might miss out on some games, but at the same time GOG.com will remain true to its values and will keep on offering you the best of DRM-free gaming with Fair Prices.

Once again thank you for caring so much about GOG.com. We will work hard not to disappoint you again.

--Marcin "iWi" Iwinski & Guillaume "TheFrenchMonk" Rambourg
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: I hope you guys can offer that. I'm back to buying games here, but it's hard to justify buying games that have Linux versions here when some other shops offer Linux versions to go with the Windows and OSX versions.
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Lodium: Why not just dual boot?
yea i know that win is crap but it still required for too many programs and games still.

The good thing is that steam and a few others have started pushing linux but its still not enough
and untill its enough i will dual boot
Saves me alot of pain until Linux is mainstream imo.
Because I don't want to buy new versions of Windows, even if I did want to buy them, I'm giving up a ton of disk space to have a security risk on my computer. And what's more, there's already a Linux version of some games here, I see no reason why I should have to dual boot when there's a copy of the game out there that doesn't require it.

But, what's more, the attitude that we should just dual boot is a large part of why this is still a problem. I can't get Flash 11.3 or greater to work on Linux without resorting to running the Windows version because Adobe no longer supports Linux. What's more Google supports it on Linux, but only in a way that works with Chrome, AFAIK, it can't run on any other browsers.
Posted March 13, 2014
Short and sweet:

Thank you!
Posted March 13, 2014
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Speeder: Please, please, please....

DON'T put prices in Brazil local currency. Really, DON'T.

First, it makes the game harder to pay, not easier, because when you put price in BRL you enter a world of crazy regulations (to start: you cannot accept international credit cards if you price in BRL, this mean including you have to figure a way to check if a credit card is brazillian or not, and what type of card it is).

Second: If you mostly ignore Brazil, brazillians can buy on your store hassle free, the government here consider that a store with no intention of selling to Brazil, do not have to comply to Brazil laws, but as soon you start to have a clear intention of selling to Brazil, then the government can ask you to follow its regulation, and ask you to pay taxes.

The issue with that is that Brazil regulation for games are absolutely insane (example: to sell a game in Brazil you need to make a paper document explaining the entire game, and send it to the ministry of Justice, that will see if the game is suitable for children or not, and if is suitable for general market or not, although it never happened, the ministry of justice can just refuse to allow a game to be sold too).

Also Brazil has some games banned (some entries on GTA series, Bully, Carmageddon, Duke Nukem series, and some others), if you price stuff in BRL, the government can ask you to remove the banned games from your store.

So please, DON'T price stuff in Brazil local currency, because it is madness (and not Sparta)
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revanbh: They'll allow you to choose if you want the prices to be in your local currency. So you are safe. :)
You are not understanding the issue...

It is not me, or my choice, it is law.

In Brazil, if you have no option for BRL in your site, and no legal presence in Brazil, Brazillians buying on your site are considered like people doing imports on their own, they only legal thing they have to do is pay a tax that is automatically charged on their cards or bank account.

If your site have the option for BRL, it does not matter if the user is using it or not, if he is in Brazil, he has to comply with stupid regulations.

The whole point of GOG was fight piracy the right way, with low prices and no-DRM. And I must say that in Brazil since Steam started using BRL, piracy rose instead of declining, because paying legally became harder (not easier).
Posted March 13, 2014
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mobutu: for still believing in fair gaming for everybody
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TheOperaGhost: GOG never stopped believing in "fair gaming"; the problem is that to be able to sell a game, GOG has to abide by the prices set by their partners.

That's just business.

As consumers, if we don't like it, we don't have to participate. But to imply that GOG has done something immoral or betrayed its principles is just not true.
Um, 1 price world wide has been one of their 3 main principles going back to the start. They built their business on the basis of our support and loyalty, we all had other choices for a lot of the recent additions and we've chosen to buy here instead.

I'm not sure how on Earth you can come to a conclusion that they hadn't done something immoral or at bare minimum compromised their principles.
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Trilarion: And I wonder if the US should close the loophole of not applying sales taxes to online transactions. Seems a bit unfair towards retail.
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GabiMoro: GOG says US may charge sales tax starting from 2015 or 2016. Let me see if I can find that post.

Found it: http://www.gog.com/forum/general/announcement_big_preorders_launch_day_releases_coming/post342
The US already charges it, it's just that it isn't being enforced. Because GOG isn't required to report back their sales to the authorities in the US, they get to benefit from what is technically illegal tax dodging.

But, yes, these sales are supposed to be subject to taxation.
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ztime: Thanks for listening!

Btw. VAT means added taxes. If they apply, they are added to the same price for the whole world, and depent on your country. Nothing to do with gog - and no problem for me at all.

This wasn't about avoiding taxes!

And, btw., at the moment 1 EUR = 1 USD x 1.33, while VAT is 19% here in Germany, for example.
That's how sales tax is typically done here as well. I'm not really sure why, but all stores decided to not include the sales tax in the shelf price. But, there's no law telling folks that they can't include the tax in the advertised price, you see it from time to time in cases where vendors are needing to sell without a cash register.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by hedwards
Posted March 13, 2014
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Trilarion: Maybe they cannot be persuaded to go DRM free even with regional pricing. Do they have any DRM free titles?
I don't think they currently sell any DRM-free games, but they did release Arena and Daggerfall as freeware.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/arena/
http://www.elderscrolls.com/daggerfall/

But if they can be persuaded and not also to a more flat pricing model with compensations a la GOG then better to have them here on GOG instead of not having them. GOG would have my vote to make an exception for those cases.

In Europe the games will then probably get pirated but that is probably the price you have to pay when you ask for too much.
You say that almost like they're not being pirated already :P Bethesda could only gain from releasing their games here, regional pricing or not. To be honest, I wouldn't even mind if they released their games here with a single price, but used the most expensive (Euro) prices.

Edit:

Thinking about it, let's say Bethesda released their games here without regional pricing, instead using the highest of the regional prices available elsewhere, so:

Morrowind GOTY: $29.99
Oblivion GOTY Deluxe: $34.99
Skyrim Legendary Edition: $59.99
Fallout 3 GOTY: $29.99
Fallout NV Ultimate: $29.99

And of course also re-released Fallout 1/2/Tactics here, along with "premium" (i.e. preconfigured, tested & supported and with a bunch of extras) versions of Arena and Daggerfall as a double pack for $5.99.

What I think would be a good idea would be for them to offer permanent series discounts of e.g. 20-25% and in addition to this, include Arena & Daggerfall free when buying Morrowind, Oblivion & Skyrim together and include the first 3 Fallout games free when buying Fallout 3 & New Vegas together.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by adamhm
Posted March 13, 2014
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Trilarion: Maybe they cannot be persuaded to go DRM free even with regional pricing. Do they have any DRM free titles?

But if they can be persuaded and not also to a more flat pricing model with compensations a la GOG then better to have them here on GOG instead of not having them. GOG would have my vote to make an exception for those cases.

snip
I'm not sure I follow you - exactly what sort of exception are you talking about?
Posted March 13, 2014
Well haven't been visiting the site in a while.....
An actual apology i didn't expect that, that's pretty nice.
Maybe i'm drinking the cool aid a bit quick but anyways i just picked up the 3 games i was holding out on :D
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: snip

That's how sales tax is typically done here as well. I'm not really sure why, but all stores decided to not include the sales tax in the shelf price. But, there's no law telling folks that they can't include the tax in the advertised price, you see it from time to time in cases where vendors are needing to sell without a cash register.
Actually, that's not the way it works in the EU. If you're a EU based business and you do B2C, you are required by law to list the final price that EU based end-user customers are asked to pay, i.e. the listed/ advertised price must already include VAT and not be added afterwards at checkout.
That's why GOG says that all prices include VAT where applicable.
Posted March 13, 2014
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Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: snip

That's how sales tax is typically done here as well. I'm not really sure why, but all stores decided to not include the sales tax in the shelf price. But, there's no law telling folks that they can't include the tax in the advertised price, you see it from time to time in cases where vendors are needing to sell without a cash register.
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HypersomniacLive: Actually, that's not the way it works in the EU. If you're a EU based business and you do B2C, you are required by law to list the final price that EU based end-user customers are asked to pay, i.e. the listed/ advertised price must already include VAT and not be added afterwards at checkout.
That's why GOG says that all prices include VAT where applicable.
Interesting. I guess this is a part of why that whole $1=1 euro thing got started. I'm all for customer protection, but this seems excessive. I'm not even sure how they managed to determine where to advertise the prices appropriately.
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Interesting. I guess this is a part of why that whole $1=1 euro thing got started. I'm all for customer protection, but this seems excessive. I'm not even sure how they managed to determine where to advertise the prices appropriately.
The exchange rate of USD and EUR has mostly been higher than the highest VAT in any EU member, so I highly doubt it had anything to do with VAT - another thing that may not be known is that when the $1=1€ started it was even less justifiable as a number of countries had a lower VAT back then.

I'm not sure I follow you on the part I highlighted - could you elaborate, please?
Posted March 13, 2014
A bit late to the party, but I have to join other goggers in thanking GOG for reconsidering their stance on regional pricing. This goes to show that GOG is still #1 when it comes to customer care and fairness, and that they do believe in their own offer and in what they're trying to accomplish in the digital delivery industry. And I firmly believe that proving this to the user base can be ultimately much more beneficial to GOG than simply chucking out newer titles.

Gotta say though, skimming through the thread I was actually puzzled by some people questioning GOG's decision to 'get back to their roots', and to those I wanted to ask: why exactly are you guys worried that because of this GOG won't be able to offer us newer games?

I mean, I understand that the letter itself says so, but as far as I can understand things don't really change that much: through the whole ordeal GOG's got to know how important fair pricing is to their customers, and will now try to get flat worldwide pricing when possible. However, when GOG's convinced that its user base is gonna love a certain game for which flat pricing is not possible, they can and will have to adopt regional pricing.

In such cases, GOG'll have to give out store credits to make up for the regional rip-off (god I love that vid, GOG should do more of those!), but my understanding from TET's updated post is that while GOG won't be making money, it isn't actually a terrible deal for them. I'm not an economics expert, but surely this wouldn't be the first time a company sells their product at loss, right?

GOG's offer, because of the new store credits refund, will actually be superior (or at the very least on par with) to other shops': for the same price we get more value (one or two extra games, hell it could be more during huge sales), and on top of that there's the DRM-free part and the goodies. Such an offer is bound to be attractive to some people, and in the long run it's going to help GOG establish themselves as a place to buy new games too, which is what they're trying to accomplish here.

To me all of this *does* make financial sense, because as already mentioned GOG won't be losing much money (if any?), and they've stressed before that they've been doing great and growing up to this point - meaning, they should be able to keep things up while transitioning into a bigger store. And if GOG's been growing, it's undeniable that it is also because of the competitiveness and uniqueness of their offer (DRM-free, customer first approach, great prices worldwide etc).

I obviously know things won't be as easy as I'm making them out to be, but I really think that GOG's decision doesn't necessarily mean that newer games won't be coming to the store, or that this will just make GOG go bankrupt without any sort of return, as some seem to think.

Again, thank you GOG for not only giving us the chance to voice our opinion, but for also listening to it and coming up with possibly the best solution based on what people suggested. I really wish other companies would do the same, but sadly greed seem to be the name of the game for pretty much everybody else.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by dr4gz0r
Posted March 13, 2014
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Trilarion: Maybe they cannot be persuaded to go DRM free even with regional pricing. Do they have any DRM free titles?

But if they can be persuaded and not also to a more flat pricing model with compensations a la GOG then better to have them here on GOG instead of not having them. GOG would have my vote to make an exception for those cases.

snip
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HypersomniacLive: I'm not sure I follow you - exactly what sort of exception are you talking about?
The exception of the "we will always offer a compensation". So in these cases where it is absolutely inevitable and the games are also really much wanted, they should not offer a compensation but do what they wanted to do before yesterday. Kind or rolling back the back to the roots. But only if it's really, really necessary and onyl partially and only as an exception. The rule should be that there is an adequate compensation which makes the prices much more fair. Of course difficult to say when it really is necessary and nothing else works.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by Trilarion
Posted March 13, 2014
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HypersomniacLive: I'm not sure I follow you - exactly what sort of exception are you talking about?
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Trilarion: The exception of the "we will always offer a compensation". So in these cases where it is absolutely inevitable and the games are also really much wanted, they should not offer a compensation but do what they wanted to do before yesterday. Kind or rolling back the back to the roots. But only if it's really, really necessary and onyl partially and only as an exception. The rule should be that there is an adequate compensation which makes the prices much more fair. Of course difficult to say when it really is necessary and nothing else works.
Sorry wouldn't have my blessing for that, making exceptions just opens flood gates.
Posted March 13, 2014
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HypersomniacLive: Does GOG really need to challenge Steam? I never regarded GOG as a direct competitor or challenger of Steam, nor did I ever wish it would. I want GOG to grow and succeed not to challenge (or thread) Steam's business, but to keep providing what's important and satisfying to me and others like me.
IMHO, it's rather highly unlikely that GOG users like myself (DRM-free proponents) would be ever attracted by Steam, no matter the games selection, prices or whatever else.

GOG and Steam can co-exist just fine as, in my eyes, they basically cater to different audiences.

And if you carefully read this announcement, GOG has not abandoned regional pricing, they only made some adjustment that make the majority of their objecting customers more comfortable and happy.
The big publishers I suspect you have in mind won't come to GOG any time soon, primarily because of DRM-free and not regional pricing.
You're right. GOG doesn't need to be a direct competitor of Steam, I just hope that GOG gets somewhat similar relevance in the digital gaming distribution so many more classic and new games, which are already on Steam, will get published here, without DRM-chicanery, because the big publishers would miss out on significant revenue otherwise.
I buy all the games I can get on GOG, but some I don't want to miss out on I have to buy on Steam. It would be awesome if I someday would have the choice wether to buy a game with or without DRM rather than to buy with DRM or not at all...
Post edited March 13, 2014 by KILLA-CONNI
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)