In the ARPG space, Dungeon Siege [the first one] had small elements of this: your spells fall into categories, and, as you use spells from that category ("Nature" being one), that category levels up. I can't recommend that game though. It's quite dull. I don't know what its [not ever available DRM-free] sequels had for that.

I actually played this game a bit (got a physical copy for free for taking a game design class), and there were 2 things I didn't like about it:
1. The notion of an Uber level, which, to me, defeats the point of this sort of progression; it also means you can't fix bad stats later on.
2. I made my character a Nature mage, so naturally, I looked for a combat mage. The first town didn't have one, and when I reached the second town, it was destroyed and didn't have one either; at that point I rage quit that game. Strictly speaking, I would be OK with something other than a use based system as long as it isn't "get experience points to level up", as I feel that particular growth system has been overused in the RPG genre. Also, I would prefer it if the game doesn't have a level stat in the first place (one issue with the Elder Scrolls, aside from them being real-time single-player RPGs, is that it still assigns your character an overall level; there's ugliness and missable stats in the growth system as well).

You're probably going to have the best luck with the SaGa games, specifically the Romancing SaGa games for the Super Famicom(SNES). The Romancing SaGa 2 Remaster is out on basically all platforms (mobile, console and PC) which is probably where I'd recommend you check first. It has some... interesting mechanics regarding the generation system, but once you get used to that it's got a fairly similar flow of gameplay. The Romancing SaGa 3 Remaster is on the way as well.

If you're not opposed to 32-bit games and have a way to track it down, I still think SaGa Frontier is the best example of the bunch. Yeah the plot is never great and the scenario system can get a bit repetitive unless you're constantly mixing up your party composition between each scenario, but I still think it's the best example of the stat/skill system.

Final Fantasy Legend 2 is also good and probably the only Gameboy SaGa game that really compares to FF2 in the way its stat growth works.

If memory serves the guy who directed FF2 went on to run the SaGa series so that's probably going to be the natural progression if you're still jonesing for that style of gameplay. More recent examples from the 3DS include Legend of Legacy and The Alliance Alive.

Unfortunately, the remaster doesn't appear to meet my 16-bit or DRM-free criterion, and last time I heard, there wasn't a complete fan translation.

Also, I would like something that wasn't made by Square, for a change.

Already own that game and have played it multiple times; also played the sequel. (SaGa Frontier does get bonus points for having lesbian characters, incidentally.)

I've already played that game many times; it's actually one of my most replayed games of all time. I also imported the DS remake and have played through it multiple times. (I note that the DS remake of SaGa 3 is actually more like FF2 than SaGa 2; it even has weapon and spell proficiency levels (as well as hidden monster proficiency).)

Actually, at the moment I would like to see someone else's take on this whole concept.

(I might eventually emulate those 3DS games, but it might still be a while before I feel comfortable doing so.)

Edit: Another issue with many SaGa games: They use visible encounters that move in real-time. I would prefer to have a game that *doesn't* do this, as I don't like having the game turn into an action game when I'm trying to avoid or get into encounters.

Ahh, I see. Just "not level based".

It's Square. And it has levels, BUT FF8, the way the monsters level up with you, it's pointless to level up. AND the majority of the stats AREN'T based on level at all. The "junction system". You draw magic from the world/enemies and link them to your stats, and that's how they increase instead.

Overall, FF8 has isn't the best in the series -- the story is incomprehensible after the first half or so, and it still falls into the repetitive "just keep hitting attack", because you don't want to cast your spells because that lowers your stats. Oh, and it has action elements -- like the gunblade trigger button, and button-mash-to-charge-summons. But, if you haven't, it's worth experiencing for this type of character development.


It's an MMO, but Guild Wars has XP and levels, but the level limit is low -- level 20. Most of the game occurs after the limit. How do you progress? You learn new skills by capturing them from enemies. The levels are the tutorial mode, basically.


Most ARPGs have XP/level, and plenty of stats come from it, but MOST of your character/power comes from gear and WHICH skills you take. Grim Dawn, for instance, it matters immensely where you put your skills and it has huge build variety. Not exactly what you seem to be reaching for, but it might inspire you.


"RPG without advancement at all" would be point+click adventures, or things like the TellTale games. Or some of the story-heavy "metroidvania" style games could be considered "RPG with fixed-point instead of level progression". Evoland is a Zelda-ish action/adventure/pseudo-RPG where, as you progress, the GAME SYSTEMS THEMSELVES increase, as an invocation of the history of the genre. [Alternate take on that: Eternal Sonata, while quite "traditional RPG", has a bit of "system advances as you go", creating extra complications despite you leveling normally.]


If you go further into the tactical RPG area, some of them remove level advancement altogether and replace it with unit/gear advancement. I can't remember which. Maybe Band of Bugs was one of them? The later Xcom games are like this. Many of these are weak on story choices, though. This then takes us into the games like the HOMM/Kings Bounty/Age of Wonders games that most of your power derives from the units you recruit. But they also veer heavily into strategy. (But most still have some sort of leveling of the commander.)


This stream of random consciousness is done for now.

That hasn't been my experience.

In Crystalis (NES), for example, if your level isn't high enough, you will reach a boss that you *can't* hurt at all. Your attacks will simply do no damage. This ends up being a significant issue because you can't flee from a boss fight, so if you stumble into one below the required level, it's basically game over; there's nothing you can do (other than "load save", which is fortunately still possible in boss fights). I could mention that

Then there's the Ys series, in which level often makes a huge impact; in some cases, one level makes a boss go from unreasonable to reasonable, and you're not far from making the boss too easy. In fact, in some of the games (notably Ark of Naphistim and Oath in Felghana), it is possible to reach an advanced area earlier than you're meant to; going there and killing a few enemies can raise your level to the point where the game (especially boss fights) become trivial until you reach the place where you are supposed to go there.

In Final Fantasy Adventure, while you do get better equipment as the game progresses, your level is how you increase your stats, and for magic builds especially, your stats are actually very important.

From what I know about that game, I think it would have been better if they had gotten rid of levels and XP entirely and had Junctions be the *only* way to boost your stats; then, enemy strength should be area based instead of scaling to your level (especially since, to my understanding, the game is linear). Also, the game still has other issues, like excessive cutscenes, excessively long summon animations (and some limit breaks take a while as well), and the fact that it apparently features a straight love story (something that I really don't like and is heavily overused in media of all types) as a prominent part of the plot.

Can you think of any strictly turn based RPGs that fit this paradigm?