There's one aspect of the design of some (mostly older) games that is rather interesting, and something not really seen in more modern games; classes and skills becoming obsolete.

In a modern game, it is common for classes and skills to be useful throughout the game. A class that you choose early in the game will be at least viable near the end of the game, with new equipment and abilities being found throughout the game. Similarly, skills are useful throughout the game; choose a weapon skill, and you could expect to find both early game and late game weapons that use the skill.

Sometimes we see class promotions (character irreversibly changes to a more advanced class) and skill trees (once you put enough points into a skill, a more powerful skill opens up); examples of the former include Final Fantasy 1, the Fire Emblem and Shining Force series, and (from what I understand) later Might and Magic games. Examples of the latter include games like Etrian Odyssey, where skills that are useless later are prerequisites for late-game skills.

However, and what I am talking about here, is cases where neither is the case, and you need to switch to better classes of skills as the game progresses. For example, we have:
* Final Fantasy 3 (Famicom): Take the Warrior class; this class is the main sword and armor using class in the early part of the game. However, once you get the Knight class (after a certain point in the story), which is flat-out better that Warrior, the game will stop giving you new equipment for your Warrior, and you'll need to change them into a Knight in order for the character to remain viable. This can be seen with other classes in FF3 as well.
* Wasteland 1: Consider the clip pistol skill. Clip pistols are the worst of the firearm types in Wasteland 1; low damage, short range, and no automatic fire. Furthermore, there are only two weapons in this category, and both are early game weapons. The only reason to even consider this skill is that each character starts the game with one. SMGs are flat out better, but they use a different skill, and it's a little while before you start finding such weapons.

Incidentally, neither game has a severely constrained resource that's needed to improve them; FF3 allows you to change classes (which the game calls jobs) easily (you need CP to change jobs, but since you won't be doing so that often, you will easily reach the maximum of 255 CP and running out is rare), while in Wasteland 1 you only need 1 skill point to learn most weapon skills, with the skill improving as you use it. It's not like more modern games where levels or skill points spent in earlier classes/skills would significantly gimp your character later.

(By the way, in case you're wondering, here's how the other early FF games handle the situation:
* FF2: No classes. Weapon and spell skills are designed to be useful throughout; all weapons have early and late game versions, and spell power depends on the spell's skill level, not the point in the game where it first appears. (OK, Flare *is* stronger than the likes of Fire, but Fire does far more damage to enemies weak against it than Flare (which has no element).)
* FF4: Each character has a fixed class, and you don't choose your party; instead, the game dictates your party at every point, with characters coming and going. (One character does change class at one point, however.) After a character leaves your party, the game will stop giving you equipment that only that character can use.
* FF5: Classes (called jobs like in FF3) can be easily changed at will. Unlike FF3, FF5's jobs are designed to never become obsolete; early game jobs remain useful end game (although once you master a Job, the character gets its stats and innate passives as a Freelancer, so you don't need to use that job as primary again).)
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So, what are your thoughts on this aspect of old game design? Do you think it's reasonable to have classes or skills that are only good early in the game or late in the game, or should every class/skill be designed to be useful throughout?

I can see like games like System Shock and especially Deus Ex being the main attributers (that word actually exist) to this drive in modern video gameing.

I think the paradigm to such design aspect is to enable players to discover how to play the game in their own way, rather than directing them through class dependancies and other axioms that make characters more defineable if put through excel sheets rather than actual gameplay.

IMHO the way modern games handle progression is something I prefer more but as usual it also depends on how it is inplemented. My most favorite RPG, Skyrim has a terrible progression system but I enjoy it for reasons that go past dependancies that could be easily defined and explained through excel spreadsheets or even just a normal understanding of classic RPG systems. But it is breathing in the atmosphere that have always made that game stand out even compared to games that pull the actual RPG gameplay off much better, like Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind and even Divine Divinity.

Sometimes atmosphere and user agency > gameplay. It all depends on your perspective.

Also modding the game until the cows come home helps a lot, haha. Personally, I love the job system in Trails of Mana/Seiken Densetsu 3, which is a good blend of the things that you've described but also very intuitive and easy to handle and at least a bit less "stiff". Hopefully you get what I mean by this but It just felt more inviting than other games of similar type for me. I believe that most if not all older games that used a job/class based system didn't utilize it fully when it came to storytelling and adding meaningful coherence for the plot. For instance, the jobs that the chracters have were usually completely missed out from the story itself. Its kinda like EVE ONLINEs interface, where your entire gaming life throughout that game was basically explained in plaintext numbers and not much else (of course only if you leave out the meta-aspects like community interaction and stuff like that). I can see why some peole consider clicker games as the highest form of video gaming. They're basically the perfect games in how they handle stats and they seem to represent the purest form of video gaming there is.

And regarding jRPGs, there was no real meaningful correlation between stats and the plot while a job/class based system is a perfect vessel to drive the plot forward. The only problem I can see here that this would've required a lot of scripting because you can do a lot with a job based system. The only game series that did this job/class based storytelling in a way that is both profitting the gameplay and the storytelling/drive of move forward is the Gothic-series but I could be wrong and there actually are way more games but I actually forget about them.

And to close the circle, what a shame :P!

EDIT: Just noticed that we both kinda type in a similar way O_o!

Diablo 2 tried to fix this by implementing its "skill synergy" system, but that made it even worse, and straightjacketed characters to a very narrow build.

https://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Synergies

Does the game actually call it a job system? From my understanding, it sounds more like a class system because you can't change classes as freely as in, say, FF3 or FF5.

In any case, from what I understand, the class system in Trials of Mana (at least the original, don't know if the remake changed things) is one where your characters get promoted, so it's more like Fire Emblem (specifically FE8: Sacred Stones) in that respect. In other words, it's a branched promotion system, not one where you can change classes easily (the way FF3 is). Honestly, Sykrim's growth system sounds like a refinement of the Morrowind/Oblivion system, with two key differences:
* The worst parts of the Morrowind/Oblivion system (having an incentive to make your Major skills not be the skills you actually use, the way stat growth is handled) are gone.
* Perk picks are added. (I actually don't like this sort of mechanic for the same reason I don't like skill points, but at least there's a couple ways to get them refunded.)

(Also, I note that Skyrim will never be my favorite RPG simply because I don't actually consider it (and similar games) to be an RPG, but that's another topic.) I don't see the story being affected by classes much at all, except in games where your character's classes are fixed, like in Final Fantasy 4 (and FF9, and one could put FF2's Minwu and Ricard here as well).

Also, I'd say that clicker games are only one representation of a pure form of gaming. There are games that play very differently, like Pong and Tetris, that could also be considered particularly pure forms of gaming, and I don't think you'd see somebody torn about whether to start a new game of Tetris or Cookie Clicker; those games are just too different. Or, of course, take the FF4 approach, and have the story dictate the classes you are using at any given point.

(I prefer FF5's approach, however, which gives the player freedom to use the jobs they prefer, rather than the jobs the game wants you to use.)

Except that:
* I don't tend to put links like that in my posts. (Also, please don't link to sites that autoplay video without a warning; this includes sites like YouTube and Twitch.)
* You *do* realize I sometimes use asterisks for emphasis, right?

Nice post, I do also say that Skyrim is more of an action RPG/action game. I only play it with mods and its an incredible survival game with excellent role play capabilities, though only through modding.

I'm a bit disappointed in Bethesda because they've hidden a lot of things. The animation engine is actually incredible and is perhaps less then 10% utilised by the game itself. Never seen anything like that on any game, you can do pretty crazy things with it. I really feel that Todd Howard did hold the team back my making the game much easier to understand for players.

But don't get me started about the porn mods because some of that shit is...distracting. But truth be told its super impressive what modders can do with that game. I wouldn't be suprised if at some point someone makes a racing game out of Skyrim.

I stopped playing FF4 back then and only watched others play it. I never really enjoyed the older Final Fantasies but I enjoyed almost all of them since 6. If these two are the only things that are making a difference we should both be scared!

Obviously just kidding, it just felt like we both type in a smilar way thats all.

A few questions though, why is youtube not allowed if autoplay is deactivated? I've never had the issue of autoplaying videos. What exactly is the problem here? Did you once click on a link of mine that happened to have autoplay enabled or something?

Someone could accidentally click on the link and the music will play. Also, I'm not aware of an option to disable YouTube autoplay, and even if there is, it's enabled by default (when it really should be the other way around). This can result in sounds when they're not wanted (like when somebody else is trying to work or sleep), and can lead to unpleasant sounds (like the sound of an electric guitar, which can give me headaches).

I also note that I can't tell from just looking at the link that it points to YouTube.

In any case, I consider it bad manners to link to sites that autoplay without a warning. I also consider it bad manners on the part of the site to have autoplaying content in the first place, and hence feel that people should be discouraged from posting such links.

(I have similar feelings about sites with paywalls, particularly the porous ones; links to sites with paywalls should not be posted without warning, and generally shouldn't be posted at all IMO.) Have you played FF5? It is by far my favorite in the series.

Thanks for clarifying. I won't post Youtube videos or Twitch videos that often then, unless in specifically assigned threads that ask for that sort of thing of course.

Call me old fashioned but I do think that there should be at least be some adherence of a "good etiquette", always nice to read how other people like good online etiquette, nowadays its all about trolling and being snarky. Its like the internet is the absolute perfect breeding ground of cynics. Often I catch myself being just that and its a shame actually (not in the JC Denton sense, haha).

You can deactivate Autoplay throuhg the usual player option. I usually don't really watch a lot of YouTube so I'm not constantly switching options so its no hassle. Yes, but haven't finished it. According to the walkthrough that I've read when I've wanted to finish it much later I was close to finish already and lost interest. Prior to almost finishing the game gave a couple of games to friends so they could play them and lost interest. I was into other games on different computers by then. I watched several full playthroughs throughout my life because others played in front of my eyes.

Nowadays its almost impossible for me to finish a longer game because I'm a real sucker for sandbox games and open ended games. I'm already preparing myself to spend two weeks completing Cyberpunk 2077 because I've at least finished all The Witchers and I'm "faithful" to GOG and CDPR after all :>!

One thing I like about Path of Exile is that you can change your normal basic attack (the left mouse click) to a skill (usually a low-cost, fast-acting skill).

D&D games is a mixed bag at this. Some level 1 magic can become obsolete as soon as you can access level 2 magic, but a few has its utilities throughout the game - especially since higher level magic means longer casting time, and a level 1 magic missile is a perfect spell to interrupt those pesky mages casting.

One thing, though, is that you don't invest skill points or practice specifically into level 1 magic. Hence, you aren't investing effort into improving something that will be useless later.

Also, D&D has the strange mechanic where each level of spell consumes an entirely separate resource, rather than having higher level spells use the same resources. We also see this sort of mechanic in the Wizardry series (including Japanese spin-offs, but excluding Wizardry 6-8) and in Final Fantasy 1 (pre-GBA) and 3.

Interestingly enough, the Final Fantasy 3 remake did something rather interesting when it comes to mages. The White Mage specializes in lower level magic, getting a lot of casts of 1st level magic in particular (great for out-of-battle healing with repeated Cure casts). The Devout, on the other hand, specializes in higher level magic, getting more casts of 5th level magic than any other level; no longer can you get through a dungeon using out-of-battle Cure as your sole source of healing. On the other hand, Devouts are great for healing during combat, and careful use of Curaga/Curaja outside of combat can get you through (one cast of either is usually enough to bring your whole party back to full).

(In the original FF3, Devout was flat-out better than White Mage; once you get the Devout job, there's no longer any reason to use White Mage, and you'll just use a Devout until Sage becomes available. Again, Sage is flat-out better than Devout, not to mention also being able to use both black and high summon magic. Needless to say, Sage was toned down in the remake.)