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In response to the OP.

Shared ammo pools? Unless you mean Doom 1-2 and Quake 1 (and II to a very minor extent, cells shared between hyperblaster and BFG), where an ammo type is shared between no more than two weapons at least. Quake III and Doom 3 all have different ammo types for each gun. Also Wolfenstein 3D literally has universal ammo for all three guns, so I don't understand your argument here.

'Levels that take too long to finish' vs. 'levels go on for way too long' so which is it? Are they even different from each other? I'd wager if anything Wolf3D levels take longer to complete because of how maze-y they are, even after playing the game several times through, I still get lost from time to time even though my spacial awareness in that game is pretty good. That's just bad level design then.

'A total lack of immersion' uhhh, wouldn't Wolf3D be considered much less immersive compared to Doom and Quake? Everything is on one plane/elevation, it's all 90 degree angles, there's no textured flats (ceiling/floor), and making levels for Wolf3D and making them genuinely interesting and immersive is no small feat. The original id set of levels I would call anything else but immersive, they are same-y and the tile set is very limited. Doom and Quake meanwhile have all sorts of height variation and much less restrictive in terms of architectural possibilities (especially Quake), diminishing lighting (Doom), baked lighting and shadows (Quake), sector effects and triggers, outdoor areas, ambient sounds (Quake), they literally trump every aspect of Wolf3D's 'immersion'.

AI that isn't smart? Well the AI is the same in Wolf3D, enemies make a beeline towards you and stop to attack most of the time, and in Wolf3D's case this is all their behavior dictates, minus the dog, the bosses are just souped up guards, nothing special at all. The only thing Wolf3D has over Doom is that enemies can patrol. But they brought patrolling enemies back in Quake, and the Quake II enemies make an effort to crouch your projectiles. It ain't much, but it's safe to assume the bestiary of id's other games are infinitely more interesting to fight than Wolf's ever were. I can assure you the times that Wolf enemies seemed smart was due to clever usage of floor codes to dictate what they could hear or not, prompting ambushes from several rooms away. Doom does this too, it just uses sound paths through architecture and linedef triggers instead, which is instantly more versatile.

Also, all the boss fights are terrible in id games, this isn't news to anyone who's played them, they're all pretty underwhelming and easy to bring down. They are not these game's prime strengths. At the very least Quake 1's bosses were unique in that you had to use the environment to kill them, as they were impervious to the player's weapons. Everything else is literally shoot it until it dies, and circle strafe to win.

Don't get me wrong, I actually really like Wolf3D, and I think it aged surprisingly well still, it's as old as I can go back for FPS games until I think they're just painful (Catacomb 3D). The game's greatest strength is really the talent of the community who created a lot of cool stuff for the game over the years. But my opinion is not the majority, and I understand that. It is definitely antiquated by modern standards, even by Doom standards. Less can be more, but sometimes less is really just less.

As for the difficulty, Wolf3D is undeniably more difficult than later id shooters, but for entirely different reasons, hitscanners dominate the game and at high difficulties dish out absurd amounts of damage. This is a pet peeve of a lot of people, so much to the point you start noticing hitscanners showing up less and less in old school style shooters made today, indie or modern. Because hitscanners ain't fun, they can miss sometimes, but in some games they straight up cheat and auto-aim you. Unavoidable attacks, especially very damaging ones, are seen as cheap. I like the lethal firefights in Wolf3D, but I also hate the Mutants because those guys really are just OP, I'd put them on the same field as Blood's Cultist. Instant reaction times with high damage output and you have the most horrible enemy I can imagine in a shooter. So I'd say it's mostly balanced, because the player can often deal critical hits with even a measly pistol, but it's not very balanced. It can be tense yes, but that doesn't mean it's always the most fun, and can be a pacing killer, especially in something so arcade-y. When I think of a really balanced shooter with hitscanners, I think of the first FEAR game, even on that game's highest mode it is still completely fair and doable, you just can't afford making more than a couple mistakes or it's lights out.
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Judicat0r: Did you beat Spear of destiny also? That's tough as hell.
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Hawkbit12: 'Fraid not. I own the Steam edition (I bought it years ago before The Id games came here). And there SoD is sold separately. I have been thinking about getting a hold of it. But I'm not sure if I should get on Steam or here.
SoD seems to get mixed reactions. Some people say it's better designed than Wolf 3D. Others say it's a chore to play.
Well it's both.
It's Wolfenstein way harder and frustrating at times but a nice challenge.
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Cyanosis: Shared ammo pools? Unless you mean Doom 1-2 and Quake 1 (and II to a very minor extent, cells shared between hyperblaster and BFG), where an ammo type is shared between no more than two weapons at least. Quake III and Doom 3 all have different ammo types for each gun. Also Wolfenstein 3D literally has universal ammo for all three guns, so I don't understand your argument here.
Actually Quake 2 has more than just the Hyper blaster and BFG. The Cells also power your shield. Both your shotguns use the same ammo, both your machine guns use the same ammo, and somehow the grenade launcher and rocket launcher use the same ammo. It's annoying, for me at least.
And I'm not giving Wolf a pass here. The universal ammo is not to my liking. But it was at least early days and the standard hadn't been set. But by very the latest, 3D Realms had figured out shared ammo pools were irritating in '96. But Id didn't get the memo till '99

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Cyanosis: 'Levels that take too long to finish' vs. 'levels go on for way too long' so which is it? Are they even different from each other?
Did I ever come across as suggesting they were different things? If so that wasn't intentional.

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Cyanosis: I'd wager if anything Wolf3D levels take longer to complete because of how maze-y they are, even after playing the game several times through, I still get lost from time to time even though my spacial awareness in that game is pretty good. That's just bad level design then.
My longest playtimes (Thank you results screens) tend to be in Doom 2. Single levels in Doom 2 have taken me 50 minutes to beat. Wolf does have some really mazey levels. But it has just as many really simple ones. S no I don't find it to be as bad. But I guess people's mileage might vary.

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Cyanosis: 'A total lack of immersion' uhhh, wouldn't Wolf3D be considered much less immersive compared to Doom and Quake? Everything is on one plane/elevation, it's all 90 degree angles, there's no textured flats (ceiling/floor), and making levels for Wolf3D and making them genuinely interesting and immersive is no small feat. The original id set of levels I would call anything else but immersive, they are same-y and the tile set is very limited. Doom and Quake meanwhile have all sorts of height variation and much less restrictive in terms of architectural possibilities (especially Quake), diminishing lighting (Doom), baked lighting and shadows (Quake), sector effects and triggers, outdoor areas, ambient sounds (Quake), they literally trump every aspect of Wolf3D's 'immersion'.
I never said Wolf was more immersive than Doom or Quake. But here's the rub. For all those technical improvements you mention both games only feel slightly less like weightless abstract environments. And Wolf still edges out in some tiny eras. It has things like bedrooms, kitchens, and prisons, places where people live (and die). There's actual effort but into environmental storytelling. An attempt to make you feel like you are in a place that has a life of it's own Something Quake has none of. It's no System Shock. But I appreciate the effort at least.

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Cyanosis: it's safe to assume the bestiary of id's other games are infinitely more interesting to fight than Wolf's ever were. I can assure you the times that Wolf enemies seemed smart was due to clever usage of floor codes to dictate what they could hear or not, prompting ambushes from several rooms away. Doom does this too, it just uses sound paths through architecture and linedef triggers instead, which is instantly more versatile.
Maybe you're right about how it works. I don't know thing one about coding. But even if the sound paths are technically better they sure feel less dynamic and more scripted to me,

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Cyanosis: Also, all the boss fights are terrible in id games, this isn't news to anyone who's played them, they're all pretty underwhelming and easy to bring down. They are not these game's prime strengths. At the very least Quake 1's bosses were unique in that you had to use the environment to kill them, as they were impervious to the player's weapons. Everything else is literally shoot it until it dies, and circle strafe to win
I'll take the shoot to win bosses over what ever happened in Quake's. Shooting things is fun. Quake's are.... basically platforming sections. You could put the first one into a Mario game and it would fit (Sans gore)
It might be old news to say Id's bosses suck. But considering how they're games that are often touted as perfect or without peer it's old news I'd say people could stand to be reminded of.

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Cyanosis: As for the difficulty, Wolf3D is undeniably more difficult than later id shooters, but for entirely different reasons, hitscanners dominate the game and at high difficulties dish out absurd amounts of damage. This is a pet peeve of a lot of people, so much to the point you start noticing hitscanners showing up less and less in old school style shooters made today, indie or modern. Because hitscanners ain't fun, they can miss sometimes, but in some games they straight up cheat and auto-aim you. Unavoidable attacks, especially very damaging ones, are seen as cheap. I like the lethal firefights in Wolf3D, but I also hate the Mutants because those guys really are just OP, I'd put them on the same field as Blood's Cultist. Instant reaction times with high damage output and you have the most horrible enemy I can imagine in a shooter. So I'd say it's mostly balanced, because the player can often deal critical hits with even a measly pistol, but it's not very balanced. It can be tense yes, but that doesn't mean it's always the most fun, and can be a pacing killer, especially in something so arcade-y. When I think of a really balanced shooter with hitscanners, I think of the first FEAR game, even on that game's highest mode it is still completely fair and doable, you just can't afford making more than a couple mistakes or it's lights out.
I guess I don't mind hitscanners then. At least not if they can be take down before they can fire a shot at you. Which holds true in Wolf. I've played some pretty terrible eurojank shooter where enemies will round corners already shooting exactly where you are. That's when hitscanners become unacceptable to me.
I think Wolf's difficulty comes from the range based damage system. Even a grunt can one shot you if he hit you at point blank range. But if you're smart that will never happen. It's brutal but it feels fair.

But the point of this was never to say "Wulf rulls, Duum and quake suk and yur objectively wrong if yu dont agre."
I don't think I'm going to make anyone like the game more anymore than anyone can force me to like Hexen's hub system. It's more that Id's later games get so much praise that people often make it sound like there's no point playing Wolf. That it does everything the same and worse And I think that's untrue and unfair. I like to give these older games a chance, and this one was really rewarding. And I hope I can make some people rethink Wolf as a game, or at least encourage some other younger gamers to give it a shot.

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Hawkbit12: 'Fraid not. I own the Steam edition (I bought it years ago before The Id games came here). And there SoD is sold separately. I have been thinking about getting a hold of it. But I'm not sure if I should get on Steam or here.
SoD seems to get mixed reactions. Some people say it's better designed than Wolf 3D. Others say it's a chore to play.
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Judicat0r: Well it's both.
It's Wolfenstein way harder and frustrating at times but a nice challenge.
Maybe I'll pick it up when I feel a craving for more Wolf. For now I feel like maybe playing some Sonic stuff. I've been feeling Nostalgic for Generations lately :)
Post edited April 08, 2019 by Hawkbit12
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hedwards: The Catacombs is more or less mandatory for anybody interested in the genre. I haven't played my copy in a few years, but it held up surprisingly well for being so old.

Also, I'd take a look at Rise of the Triad, it's kind of silly, but it's also a fast style of play and the digitized enemies were pretty impressive for the day.

Lastly, Chex quest was surprisingly good even though it was a promotional game. It was free in a box of Chex many years ago, and was built on the Wolf 3d engine with no violence. Still, it's surprisingly good.
I've played Catacombs 3D once and found it.... okay. Despite being so similar I feel it has aged a lot worse than Wolf 3D. But I've heard the expantion packs are better?

Rise of the Triad is very close to my heart. I actually like it more than Doom. Did Doom have a ten foot tall Nazi who says "They'll bury you in a lunch box!"? I don't think so!

One day I will play Chex Quest..... One day....
The Original Strife: Veteran Edition is an old-school FPS with some RPG-lite, Stealth-lite, and story-lite elements added. When I played the game I had low expectations, but it surprised me by its content.
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ariaspi: I think you'll like a lot Return to Castle Wolfenstein, FEAR and STALKER. No one mentioned Clive Barker's Undying and Vietcong - these are good too.

Return to Castle Wolfenstein is the shooter I replayed the most, along with the first Call of Duty.
Stalker and Vietcong have always scared me off with stories of their difficulty. From what I've heard about Vietcong you have to quicksave every 5 seconds almost.
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01kipper: The Original Strife: Veteran Edition is an old-school FPS with some RPG-lite, Stealth-lite, and story-lite elements added. When I played the game I had low expectations, but it surprised me by its content.
It's in my library and on my to play list. Right next to Turok and Modern Warfare.
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eric5h5: Have to mention the Marathon trilogy, especially since you can play them all legit 100% free using the Aleph One source port, no need to buy anything to get the game data like with Doom. Marathon 2 is the best; played that through at least twice. (Plus the Rubicon mod, AKA Unofficial Marathon 4, which I liked more than Infinity.)

Also there's an adaptation of Pathways Into Darkness using Aleph One, if you're interested in an old-school FPS that came out about a year after Wolfenstein 3D. The gameplay's quite different but I'm not sure it aged well.
How much tech work does it take to get them running? I can't mod to save my life. I got Brutal Doom Running by pure blind luck and divine intervention.
I'd certainly like to give the Marathon games a try. I've heard they were the games Bungie made before Halo. I love Halo, I love sprite-based shooters. A sprite-based shooter made by the people who made Halo sounds like the perfect game for me,
Post edited April 08, 2019 by Hawkbit12
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Breja: Wolfenstein 3D was one of the first games I ever played, which is kind of strange because I didn't play many FPSes back in the 90s. I didn't really like the genre, and I think I liked it even less when real-but-very-early 3D replaced the faux-3D of Wolfenstein.

I just liked 2D platformers and 2D games in general much more. The graphics were way, waaaaay nicer, and I guess I was just a strange kid but all the gore and "dark" stuff in shooters didn't appeal to me nearly as much as colorful, fun games like Aladdin, Prehistorik 2, Cold Shadow Jazz Jackrabbit etc.

I only played a lot of the FPS classics years later, some only after I picked them up on GOG, like Unreal, and I actully learned to enjoy most of them (I was blown away by how much fun I had with Catacombs), but my list of favorite First Person Shooters is probably really weird, because none of the most beloved classic titles is on it. Top 5 would probably be Tron 2.0, SWAT 4, Republic Commando, Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force and Bulletstorm (I'm still waiting for those last two to come to GOG by the way).
Unreal, Tron 2.0, Bulletstorm? You have good taste me friend ;)

If Elite Force ever comes to GOG I will try it in a heartbeat. And Jazz Jackrabbit it in my library and ready to be played.
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Hawkbit12: Stalker and Vietcong have always scared me off with stories of their difficulty. From what I've heard about Vietcong you have to quicksave every 5 seconds almost.
STALKER is very doable. There are popular mods like Misery that make the game actually harder (a lot). You just have to move slow and carefully. I'm not the uber-FPS-player any more and I completed it. Also it's one of the most atmospheric/immersive games I know. But if you're more into the fast "grab a gun and enter the fray" games it might not be for you.

I've never played Vietcong, so I can't comment on that.
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Timboli: I don't think I did make a big deal of it, and I didn't do too many more lines than you.

Why mention it in the way you did, if you cannot allow a response? What you said invited comment.
I was just saying your experience did not match mine, and showing I was well versed in FPS ... especially those older ones.

Gawd, I could have said so much more, but sensibly restrained myself.
I'm just surprised by the reaction it's gotten. I didn't think people would care that much. But thanks again for being chill about it :)

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Timboli: I never go by the bad things others report, so go for it with the Capstone games .... approach with a free perspective
Maybe I will. Corridor 7 looks interesting to say the least.
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Hawkbit12: Stalker and Vietcong have always scared me off with stories of their difficulty. From what I've heard about Vietcong you have to quicksave every 5 seconds almost.
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toxicTom: STALKER is very doable. There are popular mods like Misery that make the game actually harder (a lot). You just have to move slow and carefully. I'm not the uber-FPS-player any more and I completed it. Also it's one of the most atmospheric/immersive games I know. But if you're more into the fast "grab a gun and enter the fray" games it might not be for you.
Hmmm. The slowest FPS game I've played is the original Far Cry. Where you can spend a good 10 minutes just planning and crawling before firing a shot. I liked it a lot. But I've never tried stuff like Arma or the old Rainbow Six games
Post edited April 08, 2019 by Hawkbit12
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Hawkbit12: Hmmm. The slowest FPS game I've played is the original Far Cry. Where you can spend a good 10 minutes just planning and crawling before firing a shot. I liked it a lot. But I've never tried stuff like Arma or the old Rainbow Six games
Hmm. In that case STALKER should be no problem for you. And I found Far Cry way harder than STALKER.
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Hawkbit12: An attempt to make you feel like you are in a place that has a life of it's own Something Quake has none of. It's no System Shock. But I appreciate the effort at least.
You step through a portal in Quake that takes you to a completely unfamiliar and otherwordly realm that houses Lovecraftian horrors and aims to break your mind. There isn't supposed to be a sense of place.
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toxicTom: Hmm. In that case STALKER should be no problem for you. And I found Far Cry way harder than STALKER.
"[Far Cry] was the kind of game where you have to bind quicksave and quickload to the left and and right mouse buttons before you can get anywhere."

Ben "Yahtzee" Crowshaw of Zero Punctuaion XD
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CARRiON-XCII: ...aims to break your mind.
... and with the help of Trent Reznor too.

Still use the tracks from the CD for eerie PnP RPG sessions... love it.

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Hawkbit12: "[Far Cry] was the kind of game where you have to bind quicksave and quickload to the left and and right mouse buttons before you can get anywhere."

Ben "Yahtzee" Crowshaw of Zero Punctuaion XD
Only that you didn't have quicksave - except per console. The game only had checkpoints...
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CARRiON-XCII: You step through a portal in Quake that takes you to a completely unfamiliar and otherwordly realm that houses Lovecraftian horrors and aims to break your mind. There isn't supposed to be a sense of place.
Really? If so couldn't they have made them more unfamiler and otherworldly? 'Cus it just feels like the same brown castle over and over again. And Even lovecraftian neverworlds should feel like a place rahter than just a level. Undying pulled both off beautifully.
Edit: And come to think of it, for all the Flack Xen gets, so did Half-Life.
Post edited April 08, 2019 by Hawkbit12
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hedwards: The Catacombs is more or less mandatory for anybody interested in the genre. I haven't played my copy in a few years, but it held up surprisingly well for being so old.

Also, I'd take a look at Rise of the Triad, it's kind of silly, but it's also a fast style of play and the digitized enemies were pretty impressive for the day.

Lastly, Chex quest was surprisingly good even though it was a promotional game. It was free in a box of Chex many years ago, and was built on the Wolf 3d engine with no violence. Still, it's surprisingly good.
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Hawkbit12: I've played Catacombs 3D once and found it.... okay. Despite being so similar I feel it has aged a lot worse than Wolf 3D. But I've heard the expantion packs are better?

Rise of the Triad is very close to my heart. I actually like it more than Doom. Did Doom have a ten foot tall Nazi who says "They'll bury you in a lunch box!"? I don't think so!

One day I will play Chex Quest..... One day....
TBH, Catacombs 3D and the rest were probably better played before Wolf 3D, they did contain some stuff like walls that could be demolished that Wolf 3D didn't have, but it's definitely a game that had technological limitations.

I definitely enjoy going back and playing them from time to time, but I do admit that there may be some nostalgia there.
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Hawkbit12: An attempt to make you feel like you are in a place that has a life of it's own Something Quake has none of. It's no System Shock. But I appreciate the effort at least.
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CARRiON-XCII: You step through a portal in Quake that takes you to a completely unfamiliar and otherwordly realm that houses Lovecraftian horrors and aims to break your mind. There isn't supposed to be a sense of place.
Sort of, that wasn't the original intent, the lack of specific place is a byproduct of them not being able to decide. Which is part of why you see the two styles in the same levels at points. This isn't something you see in any of the other iD games as far as I can recall.

This wasn't the first game to have teleporting in it, but it was the one where they made a mess of the theme.

OTOH, it was from a time before anybody got so full of themselves that they decided to force story elements into the gameplay. I doubt most people paid attention to the random mismatching of medieval and scifi elements.
Post edited April 08, 2019 by hedwards