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djranis: capitalist bastards will try to capital on everything, its a like disease or virus turns them in profiting zombies
Indeed. Nothing is safe under capitalism. Everything will always be under attack because there will always be greedy fucking people who want more and more and more until this planet is nothing but a desolate wasteland.
Post edited June 08, 2015 by monkeydelarge
@OneFiercePuppy: Thumbs up! But please bear in mind that I am trying to get people onto the european figtht against our lobbyists here;)

https://www.savetheinternet.eu/
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Mr. D™: @OneFiercePuppy: Thumbs up! But please bear in mind that I am trying to get people onto the european figtht against our lobbyists here;)
I know - but MarioFanatic was lambasting it in the context of the recent laws passed in the USA for regulation.

A few years ago I was pretty on top of the European law for network neutrality (and most other things internet-related) because my job required it, but I haven't kept up. Hopefully it'll turn out well for everyone. Best of luck ^_^ I can hardly sign a petition for European law as a US citizen.

Well, I could use a proxy and my rusty foreign language, but there's plenty to clean up in my own house. Seems best to leave you to yours XD


EDIT: typo
Post edited June 08, 2015 by OneFiercePuppy
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pi4t: Your metaphor seems off. This isn't about inventing a faster, more expensive plane/internet system, it's about reallocating what we have. In terms of planes (and ignoring the technological impracticality of what I'm about to suggest - it's a metaphor!), it's more like removing some of the engines from some of the planes and putting them on other planes to make them go faster, then charging more for the "hyperfast planes". People who aren't prepared to pay for the fast planes will be stuck with planes which are going slower than they used to be, due to having fewer engines, and will still be paying the same price.

Note that I'm not necessarily trying to argue that this is a good or bad thing - it's far too late at night to be coming to conclusions like that.
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MarioFanaticXV: But there already are faster and slower services- and it should remain as such. Not everyone needs the speed that Google or Netflix does. And if they're using up more bandwidth? It's only natural that they should pay more for it.

The problem is, some people are trying to argue that by allowing cheaper services and more options, that this will somehow hurt consumers, when the exact opposite is true. A one-size-fits-all package is never good for consumers. Sometimes, you want economy mail because it's cheap and you don't need it to be fast. Other times, you want to pay that extra money for priority or even express mail to get a package to its destination sooner.

Similarly, not everyone wants or needs to be buying the top tier internet service package.
Hmm. I can see your argument, and agree that it might be reasonable, if the price was set according to how much bandwidth people are actually using. As far as I can see, and correct me if I'm wrong, if this was allowed there would be nothing to prevent ISPs setting prices according to different criteria which are absolutely not consumer friendly. For instance, increasing the price for a website if they happen to stand to profit from one of its competitors doing well, to try to drive people to the competitor. Even if they're obliged to set each speed at the same price for everyone, they can still inflate the high prices to an amount which won't seriously affect the big companies already getting large profits, but which will act as a bottleneck which smaller companies won't be able to afford, and thus prevent the smaller companies from growing to a level where they threaten the big ones. If the ISPs will benefit from reduced competition for the biggest companies, they'll probably do that.

According to the website the OP linked, this would also give ISPs the ability to block any website they want, which is a seriously bad thing. They'd be able to completely cut people off from any website which was threatening them, for a start, which would basically destroy peoples' ability to compete with them online. That's not to mention more ethical issues of censorship, blocking things like news websites they with a different political leaning to them, or websites like the one the OP linked, set up when they try to push worse things into law.

For your second paragraph, the problem is that - to me, at least - it doesn't look as if it will offer cheaper services. In my experience, they'll continue charging the same amount as they currently do for their "current" service, while introducing the "hyperfast lane". The trouble is that by using more of their infrastructure on people who pay more, the "standard" service will get worse, while they still charge the same amount.

Incidentally, thank you for responding calmly, rather than giving the usual internet response of "Argh, you disagreed with me! Clearly, you deserve to die a horrible death!"
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MarioFanaticXV: But there already are faster and slower services- and it should remain as such. Not everyone needs the speed that Google or Netflix does. And if they're using up more bandwidth? It's only natural that they should pay more for it.

The problem is, some people are trying to argue that by allowing cheaper services and more options, that this will somehow hurt consumers, when the exact opposite is true. A one-size-fits-all package is never good for consumers. Sometimes, you want economy mail because it's cheap and you don't need it to be fast. Other times, you want to pay that extra money for priority or even express mail to get a package to its destination sooner.

Similarly, not everyone wants or needs to be buying the top tier internet service package.
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pi4t: Hmm. I can see your argument, and agree that it might be reasonable, if the price was set according to how much bandwidth people are actually using. As far as I can see, and correct me if I'm wrong, if this was allowed there would be nothing to prevent ISPs setting prices according to different criteria which are absolutely not consumer friendly. For instance, increasing the price for a website if they happen to stand to profit from one of its competitors doing well, to try to drive people to the competitor. Even if they're obliged to set each speed at the same price for everyone, they can still inflate the high prices to an amount which won't seriously affect the big companies already getting large profits, but which will act as a bottleneck which smaller companies won't be able to afford, and thus prevent the smaller companies from growing to a level where they threaten the big ones. If the ISPs will benefit from reduced competition for the biggest companies, they'll probably do that.

According to the website the OP linked, this would also give ISPs the ability to block any website they want, which is a seriously bad thing. They'd be able to completely cut people off from any website which was threatening them, for a start, which would basically destroy peoples' ability to compete with them online. That's not to mention more ethical issues of censorship, blocking things like news websites they with a different political leaning to them, or websites like the one the OP linked, set up when they try to push worse things into law.

For your second paragraph, the problem is that - to me, at least - it doesn't look as if it will offer cheaper services. In my experience, they'll continue charging the same amount as they currently do for their "current" service, while introducing the "hyperfast lane". The trouble is that by using more of their infrastructure on people who pay more, the "standard" service will get worse, while they still charge the same amount.

Incidentally, thank you for responding calmly, rather than giving the usual internet response of "Argh, you disagreed with me! Clearly, you deserve to die a horrible death!"
On the first point, I'd like to point out that if they did operate this way, it'd simply be bad business sense for them. If smaller companies are allowed to grow to the point that they need a more expensive package, that means more money for the ISP in question; so in essence, they want the small companies to grow. It's just like the myth that companies want everyone else to be poor; the more people that have money, the more potential customers they have.

On the second point, I've asked many people for examples of such happening. No one has been able to provide an instance of such in the US. Could it potentially happen? Maybe, but by letting the FCC take ahold of the internet, we've opened the door for the government to do nationwide blocks of websites, that instead of only affecting the customers of one company, would effect everyone in the same way Chinese censors work.

And while the price probably won't go down, it does mean that price increases will likely be slower, as was the result of 800 and 900 numbers being introduced to phone services.

I'd also like to thank you for very much the same thing. Most people want to ignore what I have to say and simply dismiss it without actually responding to my points. While we still seem to disagree, you are not at all like such cowards.
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Sarisio: We already got new internet taxes here in Russia (they will go in power at the end of this year)....

Need to wait, maybe someone will invent charging money for breathing or something of that kind :)
They already do. lol! If you're alive you're paying someone. Unless you decide to trek into the jungle and go 'off the grid'.

Here there's a tax for water that runs off of your property when it rains... you believe that ****?