First, let's start this post with an example of something that could happen in, say, the Dragon Warrior randomizer:

* Player leaves the castle, encounters a Slime.
* Player decides not to cast Hurtmore, as it costs 5 MP (which is a bit much when you're level 1, and clearly overkill for such a weak enemy).
* Player attacks the slime, hits for 1 point of damage (expected this early in the game).
* Slime breathes fire, hitting player for 65 damage (definitely *not* expected; this particular attack is normally used only by the final boss), resulting in the player character's death.

As you can see, in this example the randomization gave a normally easy enemy a rather nasty breath attack, and I think the player will want to avoid this enemy in the future, at least until they become strong enough to one-hitt-kill them without having to spend 5 MP on a spell. (Fortunately, since the player isn't playing chaos mode, so the Slime still has its normal stats, and should be easy to run from; unfortunately, this also means they give only one experience point.)

Anyway, when it comes to roguelikes or other games with significantly randomized content, the question is: How random should things get? Is it OK to give early enemies (and perhaps the player) endgame-level abilities right at the start? Should monsters still have their usual stats, or should they be randomized? Should shop prices be randomized, and if so, how much? (I saw a DWR chaos seed where the Silver Shield, normally the most expensive item in the game, cost only 2 gold, for example.)

Or, to look at a roguelike, how random should enemy spawns and loot drops be? Is it OK to find the Ultima spell and encounter a Lich on the first floor, or should those not be able to spawn until later? Would it bother you if the Lich's stats were randomized, making it (maybe) killable by a first level character (only to then be killed in one hit by a grid bug), or should monsters of a specific type at least be similar from seed to seed? Should the entrance to hell ever appear on the first level of the dungeon, or should it wait until the player would be expected to be able to handle it?

Or, in general, how much chaos should there be in the game?

Here are some examples:
* Rogue: My understanding is that powerful treasures could appear right away if you get really lucky, but poweful enemies are reserved for later (though some of the early enemies can be nasty, especially if it's your first time playing).
* The Binding of Isaac: A lot like Rogue. I saw the world record speedrun, and it basically involved getting lucky and finding overpowered items early on.
* Dragon Warrior randomizer: The map, player stats, item locations, and the special attacks of enemies and the order in which spells are learned are randomized; however, outside of chaos mode, things like enemy stats are not. (For example, a Magician will always have its relatively low stats; however, it won't necessarily no Hurt. It might not know any spells, or it might be able to cast Hurtmore or use dragonlord breath (the attack the slime I mentioned earlier uses).)
* Zelda: A Link to the Past. Normally, only item locations are randomized (though there are variations that can randomize entrances or enemies). Furthermore, there is "logic" in the randomizer that is meant to prevent unwinnable situations; for example, the first boss (which requires the bow to reach) will never be guarding the bow, and the emblem needed to enter the Misery Mire dungeon (which is also randomized) will never be found in the dungeon itself. (There is an option in the randomizer to disable the randomizer, or specify what sort of glitches the player is assumed to know abount.)
* Tangledeep. This game doesn't feel that chaotic; the biggest source of chaos is in the random abilities assigned to enemy champions. The DLC adds more chaos in its additional content; Journeys give enemies random abilities, and Shara's story randomizes the abilities that *you* get to learn.
* Syoban Action (press '0' on title screen): This mode (called Mystery Dungeon mode in the Japanese readme) is quite chaotic, and makes no effort to ensure winnability; in fact, the chance of being able to clear it on any given life is quite low. Note that, when you respawn at a checkpoint (the game gives you infinite lives, even allowing your life counter to go into the negatives), the level is re-randomized, so often you just need to keep dying until the level is solvable (and the game doesn't decide to spawn an enemy right on top of you, of course).

So, how much chaos is good for roguelikes and other randomized games? Do you like it when things are chaotic, or would you rather have at least some of the game elements be consistent?

Anyone?

I believe the core issue here is balance. Considering how much time and resources game developers put into testing in order to have their games come out balanced, so as not to be too easy, or too unfair, there's a limit I think Ito how much chaos you could have in a game and still call it a good game.

I think it has to be measured/tweaked against the length of the game, or a game session. If something crazy random like that ends a 5 hour run then I'll be pissed. On the other hand, for shorter games like Nethack it's a bit more ok.

Truthfully though, that kind of slime randomness scenario comes off as a bit much for me. I prefer to instead have a game cause 'chaos' due to the clash of a lot of 'reasonable' ingame parameters. Chaos can erupt in something like Nethack simply because of an unfortunate meeting of different mechanics. For example, my last Nethack death turned a very powerful ranger into a pummeled and very dead rodent in a frighteningly short span of time due to a combination of the following: a bout of teleportitis; a polymorph trap and one very angry wind elemental.

That I'm ok with, and find a lot of fun. Also, it makes for a great story! It's present in not only Nethack, but also, Cataclysm DDA (highly recommended btw - though it's much easier to prepare for and survive chaos there), Dwarf Fortress and, I'm guessing, Rimworld.

I actually don't care for randomization at all. It's about replayability, right?
To me, scripted games just offer a better experience.

Sometimes it can be fun for a game to not be balanced. See some of the randomizers out there, which randomize things with no concern about balance.

There's one other major difference of note.

Nethack, as you know, has permadeath (assuming you're not playing explore or wizard mode). If you die, that's the end of both that character and that world; hence, the result of unlucky chaos can be catastrophic. This limits the amount of chaos that is acceptable in such a game, and it also means you can't try to deal with the same chaos again (things like bones levels and Shiren's rescues aside).

In Dragon Warrior, when you die you're just sent back to the castle, minus half your gold, but with your HP and MP restored (if you didn't curse yourself). This means that, in the randomizer, if you get killed unexpectedly by a slime, you still keep your character, and are still playing in the same world, and you know that slimes have dragonlord breath and that you should probably consider running from (or casting an offensive spel) until you're strong enough to kill them in one hit. As a result, such events aren't game-ending, and are therefore aren't as unfair as they would be in a permadeath game.

Of course, there's also the in-between case of Syoban Action's Mystery Dungeon mode, where dying (or being unable to complete the level) will let you keep your progress (if you managed to hit a checkpoint), but the world isn't preserved. (By the way, in the game's normal mode, the levels are the same every time, but there are some nasty traps that will likely kill you (in funny ways) if you don't know about them ahead of time; this game would be called a "troll game" these days.)

Also, sometimes combinations of events can lead to different chaos situations even in a game like Dragon Warrior randomizer; what if, in addition to slimes with dragonlord breath, there are no red slimes in the starting area, your starting strength is too low to hurt any of the other enemies near the start, and there's no town near the start (or, if there is, there are no weapons for sale that you can afford). This could lead to a rather tricky starting position. Maybe you might *have* to fight slimes, hoping you don't get killed too many times, until you've earned enough XP for level 2 (and hope you get a decent strength bonus or an offensive spell). Perhaps you finally reach level 2, get no strength, and you learn Sleep and Outside. Guess it's now time to put lowly slimes to sleep!

The more random, the greater the need for a reliable toolset to deal with them in my opinion.

Anyhow, I recommend trying out Lobotomy Corporation. If any roguelike can be called chaotic, THAT is the example.

I do prefer a bit more chaos than the classic system of "you, and only you are the target." (This really doesn't help the immersion sometimes.)

Strange things like shifting level layouts and strange floors are nice.

But dumb things like sokoban floors can go back to the infernal pit.

Whatever randomness there is should be learnable so that a skilled player can take it all into account when making decisions. Especially in a real-time game where there isn't much time to think. Roguelikes sink or swim by how balanced they are: having one life and being unable to savescum makes an unblanced game completely unbearable.

In FTL, once you know what events exist in each type of sector, you're better able to make informed decisions and manage risks, rather than having an anvil dropped on you every time you advance. If, e.g. the game had a 5% chance per run of dumping a gimmicky boss on you at a random point, that would be garbage game design because it's not frequent enough that you'll plan for it and allocate resources, you just hope it doesn't come and ruin your game.