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I used to be in a school aviation club and we ran a flight sim I ca't recall the name of(there were buttons for landing gear, and windshield wipers etc, there were competitions and field trips. I remember for the sim we ran we used a yoke, and pedals. To be clear, these weren't driving pedals, they didn't rotate on a hinge, you slid one forward, and the other would mechanically slide backward. Galaga is one of my favorite games, and I like my vintage sticks for a lot of games, joy ticks like the Gravis Blackhawk Digital, Gravis Xterminator Dual control, and a Microsoft sidewinder of some verity, although I do have some newer joysticks that can twist, which I find super annoying in games that don't use it like Road Rash. I have read people swear by the interact Mako gamepad and the Microsoft Sidewinder Dual Strike, and the Gameport version of the Gravis Xterminator Gamepad, for flight sims like X-wing.

I was interested in possibly getting a modern joystick and trying a modern flight sim, but it seems all of them are modeled after a A-10, and all I find is "best HOTAS by year" type discussions and lists as though they either wear out in a year or become incompatible with each new fight sim version. I looked up what HOTAS actually means and apparently it is an acronym that just means buttons on the joystick, which sounds like every decent joystick ever made with any thought about ergonomics. I have also seen some newer joy sticks with a throttle joystick with it's own buttons on handle, and that seemed rather rare with older controllers, though the PlayStation 1 had something like that. I would think that means flight sims have gotten a little more advanced since then.

So why do all newer joysticks seem to be A10 warthog inspired with those buttons all on one side, seemingly far less ergonomic than my Gravis sticks? Why do review sites and threads treat them like $100 joysticks are disposable after a year? I have seen some throttle sticks that seem to have separate cords from the joystick, are any available separately to use with a more ergonomic joystick as the ones I have? Are there good options for a yoke and paddle type controller How has the flight simulator scene changed since say, Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000? I think that was the last one I owned. If I wanted to consider trying a modern flight sim, what might be a good option for a non combat sim, and maybe a combat sim? Budget less than $100 for any single component, not afraid of ebay searching. I'm having trouble finding general info on the modern state of flight sims and their input capabilities with the seemingly thousands of "top ten best hotas 2018" and "what is the best hotas for X" pages. I still don't understand why hotas, or why all the new joysticks look less ergonomic than joysticks from the 90's which cut impact time down by placing the buttons where your fingers naturally rest.

It would seem weird to play a flight sim where you're flying a C-141 Starlifter with a A-10 joystick.
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Scrapack: How has the flight simulator scene changed since say, Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000? I think that was the last one I owned. If I wanted to consider trying a modern flight sim, what might be a good option for a non combat sim, and maybe a combat sim?
This Thrustmaster might be what you are after.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5c4c5cIik4

Shortly after FS2000 there was the IL-2 series of WWII combat flight sims which were rolled up into il-2 1946 then it had a crap sequel and another one after that that was supposedly better.

If you wait it might be cheaper when on sale plus there were mods out there for it.
https://www.gog.com/game/il_2_sturmovik_1946

There's Xplane11 for civil flying and DCS World for modern combat but it's has online DRM. I'm not sure about Xplane.

If you want to try out spaceflight there's the free sim Orbiter http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/
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Scrapack: How has the flight simulator scene changed since say, Microsoft Flight Simulator 2000? I think that was the last one I owned. If I wanted to consider trying a modern flight sim, what might be a good option for a non combat sim, and maybe a combat sim?
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Spectre: This Thrustmaster might be what you are after.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5c4c5cIik4

Shortly after FS2000 there was the IL-2 series of WWII combat flight sims which were rolled up into il-2 1946 then it had a crap sequel and another one after that that was supposedly better.

If you wait it might be cheaper when on sale plus there were mods out there for it.
https://www.gog.com/game/il_2_sturmovik_1946

There's Xplane11 for civil flying and DCS World for modern combat but it's has online DRM. I'm not sure about Xplane.

If you want to try out spaceflight there's the free sim Orbiter http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/
Thanks, I'll look into those. I do have Il-2, It was $1.49 during a build a bundle sale. I hadn't heard of it, but it had better reviews than the other games I looked at in the sale for the next tier. I guess it gets moved up on my play list. It has been more than a year since I've seen my Ms Flight Sim disks. I'm suprised GOG doesn't have any of them, or Dweep Gold, that game was awesome too if unrelated.
This is my joystick.


But THIS is my gamepad. And what I primarily use.
I don't have much experience in flight simulators other than space games. I currently have a X56 that I only use for Elite, and a Logitech Extreme for others. The Logitech Extreme is definitely more comfortable for me to use, but that is also the style of joystick I've been using for years.

The X-56 has an issue with some of the switches on the throttle stick automatically getting activated on occasion. From what I've read, it's due to a lack of power from the USB ports on the PC. Everyone recommends getting a powered USB hub to correct the issue, so I'll do that eventually.

As far as button placement, I do have an issue with a couple of buttons on the stick. There's one at the very top of the hats, which is a little difficult to get to unless you have extremely long fingers. There is also one on the base where your fingers are wrapped, which occasionally I push when in combat. Otherwise, the stick is fine. For the throttle, some of the switches on the right can be a little hard to access depending on the position of the throttle. There's also a few buttons on the backside of the throttle that I still have to feel to make sure it's the correct one I'm using.

There are a couple models out as it was originally made under Saitek before Logitech picked them up. I had a hard time finding drivers since the Logitech website pointed me to the old Saitek site, which referred me back to Logitech. I eventually found an ftp with them though.

https://www.logitechg.com/en-us/products/space/x56-space-flight-vr-simulator-controller.945-000058.html
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Darvond: This is my joystick.

But THIS is my gamepad. And what I primarily use.
When I read your comment I couldn't help but think of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kU0XCVey_U
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Scrapack: snip
HOTAS = Hands On Throttle And Stick (but you probably know that already).

It's an actual real life acronym, not just made up for flightsims/flightsticks for games.

The HOTAS standard was implemented for reasons of flight security and reaction time: if all necessary control elements are on the throttle and the stick (= literally: at hand all the time), the pilot can react much faster, because there's no need for him to first take off the hands from the flightstick, and then grab it again, after - say - pressing a button on the control board, etc.
That action may only take a fraction of a second, but in a dogfight, a fraction of a second may mean the difference between life and death.

I use these two flightsticks:

Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas X: https://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-T-Flight-Hotas-Flight-Stick-PC/dp/B001CXYMFS

Thrustmaster T.Flight Stick X: https://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-T-Flight-Stick-X-PS3-PC/dp/B000U1OOH4
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Darvond: This is my joystick.

But THIS is my gamepad. And what I primarily use.
I got one of those joysticks laying around in my garage. Doesn't everyone end up with one somehow? I didn't like it as much as the Gravis Blackhawk Digital, but the Digital doesn't twist, or work in anything newer than win98 even with the elusive XP driver disk. There are rumors of a way to get it running in Linux, I haven't pursued this yet.

I really like my playstation 2 controllers and have adapters from them to all my vintage consoles, bluetooth, and even my newer consoles. I have been looking at that 8bitdo controller as a possible pc gamepad replacement. I wish it was available with the GameCube coloring like the other one. For wireless PC gamepads I've been using a Wii U Pro Gamepad with an 8bitdo reciever, and it is pretty comfortable. How does that 8bitdo pad compare to a playstation 2 controller in terms of grip and feel?
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Scrapack: snip
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BreOl72: HOTAS = Hands On Throttle And Stick (but you probably know that already).

It's an actual real life acronym, not just made up for flightsims/flightsticks for games.

The HOTAS standard was implemented for reasons of flight security and reaction time: if all necessary control elements are on the throttle and the stick (= literally: at hand all the time), the pilot can react much faster, because there's no need for him to first take off the hands from the flightstick, and then grab it again, after - say - pressing a button on the control board, etc.
That action may only take a fraction of a second, but in a dogfight, a fraction of a second may mean the difference between life and death.

I use these two flightsticks:

Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas X: https://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-T-Flight-Hotas-Flight-Stick-PC/dp/B001CXYMFS

Thrustmaster T.Flight Stick X: https://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-T-Flight-Stick-X-PS3-PC/dp/B000U1OOH4
Yes, I knew that, but as I mentioned, that seems to describe every joystick not designed for an atari or or Apple ii computer. I was typing from memory in which all the joysticks listed as HOTAS, look like these weird bulbous things in the photo I pulled strait from google, and were described as though they were good for one year only. Looking into it again I see a few more-like my Microsoft SideWinder from the days of Win98, but with the throttle potentiometer and secondary buttons moved into a handle. Looking back again, it seems it was only Gravis that was focused on superior ergonomics, where the buttons are placed where the fingers naturally rest so that even less movement is required than the current HOTAS sticks.

I don't recall HOTAS ever being mentioned with controllers from Win98 even when they had a throttle lever with buttons. It seems like it is more of a buzz word than anything else, kind of like the vacuum tube equipment boxes I've seen with atomic symbols everywhere, at least with HOTAS there is some merit. I did find some separate usb throttles, that seem like they should be able to accompany any flight stick, including my old Sidewinders. Is HOTAS essentialy a buzz word to sell new joysticks? I don't know if newer flight sims require newer flight sticks because there is some added functionality with the HOTAS type throttle not found in the throttle slider and secondary button cluster on vintage flight sticks, or maybe it is a different type of input signal like the difference between X-input and D-input, and some games will only recognize one or the other. I did read somewhere that a "modern flight sim" requires 2-4 pov hats to effectivly play, which seems a little absurd to me. What do you do with 4 pov hats? I used to also play Galaga-esque games where trigger 1 was primary gun, Trigger 2 was secondary limited heavy weapon, and pov was target selection. I guess a flight sim could use one pov to aim, another to look, if you don't have a fixed perspective, but what would the other two be for? How common are games that would necessitate this?

I see lots of posts and lists as though last years models are not worth considering, and it is unclear if it is due to discontinued game support, or added features, but maybe it is just constant hyping of the the throw-away, new or nothing culture I don't subscribe too. Maybe I am just overly hesitant simply because I enjoy repairing things so I tend to avoid the newest machines as they often have design elements made specifically to prevent repair, and sometimes designed specifically to fail early. Apple has been sued for doing both, so price doesn't mean longevity. I mentioned that my win98 controllers still work, I can't say that about all my xbox360 controllers, and they are probably much more expensive with inflation applied.

Because PC controllers and peripherals can loose driver support, one of my future projects will be to get a second BlackHawk digital and modd the handle onto a X360 Madcatz Pacific Aviator(AV8R), as console controllers always seem to get adapters or drivers for each new operating system from the corporations or the community, also it will add the twisting function for the games that need it. I've dismantled both, and it seems the hardest part will be the plastic welding on the base and knowing how much jb weld reinforcement the base will need since the Aviator has a removable thread on handle socket plate. If I couple that with a secondary USB HOTAS type throttle lever, that seems like it could be quite fun.
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Post edited May 08, 2020 by Scrapack
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I hope you don't get angry at me for double posting, however I don't see anything about it in the rules. I know some forums get very upset about it, however I felt my last post was long and edited enough. One Item I couldn't find on Cnet so I linked to amazon instead as I thought it'd be the most stable link. I know some forums do not allow linking to sales sites, however I did not see that listed in the rules here. It Seems like these two points since they can lead to banning or general uproar on some discussion boards but not others should have been in the forum FAQ here with the other rules.

Maybe listing the computer joysticks and flight sticks I own and have used will provide a better picture of where I'm coming from, relative to Modern gaming. I'm only going to list PC and Xbox 360 controllers and not other console joysticks, since Microsoft did push somewhat successfully, to make the Xbox 360 controller the standard PC controller.

Also, I have a win10 tower for modern and GOG games and I have a Pentium 2 win98 laptop with 1 usb port, and 2 pcmcia gameports I use for gaming and am building a pentium 4, 4gb ram win98 tower that I have twin soundblasters in for two player action, after all not all Gameport controllers can daisy chain. If I find one controller I really like I'll get one for player two. Also, I know about the 500mb win9x os ram cap, but with the unofficial service pack and kernelex it runs beautifully, and can probably run some of my xp games that are not win7 onward compatible. I also have a old sli-bridged graphics card winXP gaming tower I haven't gotten around to resetting up again for non GOG titles and a lot of console to pc peripherals that require xp specifically, like my usb GameCube memory card. I am also trying to get into Linux Mint 64bit. In short, multiple system compatibility is important to me whenever possible.

Now to the point, the list:

1) TG Products Joystick for Apple ii Computer(internal microchip socket style connector with internal chip socket to Apple "joyport" pinnout adapter.) I was working on joyport to gameport adapter a while back before running into a problem then getting busy, recently found out the apple crowd finished it in the meantime, at least in the opposite direction, probably works both ways. Think of a tiny NES Advantage joystick, or a Atari 2600 joystick with two buttons instead of one, or just look at the photo in the link. Definitely not HOTAS, or even what I would consider a "modern joystick" design. There is vintage, and then there is Archaic, not to insult any of you Apple ii modders and enthusiasts.
https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Peripherals/Digitizers/TG%20Products%20Joystick/Photos/TG%20Joystick.JPG

2) Gravis BlackHawk Digital (digital gameport with no known usb adapter, port detection is hit or miss in xp installs)(no twist) This is the only joystick I'll list designed for windows 98 onward that doesn't work in windows 10. This belonged to my father, and we both have countless hours of nostalgia with it. So much so, that getting the games running on modern systems that the joystick couldn't run on just wasn't the same. I will always miss this with Astro Avenger and Road Rash. This will always be my favorite joystick, if only for the AAA A++ ergonomics and the memories. If you know an usb adapter that works for this, or the Gravis Xterminator digital Gameport gamepad, please let me know.
https://www.cnet.com/products/gravis-blackhawk-joystick/

3) Gravis BlackHawk (analogue gameport)(no twist) purchased much later, no pov hat which was needed for allot of the games the Digital was used with, also missing the top button on the stick. Has a rubber mat on top instead of the pov hat and fifth button, although it is an analogue gameport so it does work with adapters, although not near as useful
https://www.amazon.com/Gravis-BlackHawk-Joystick-button-black/dp/B00000JKMC

4) Gravis Xterminator Dual Control (digital gameport w/usb)(no twist) triggers where the right hand fingers rest, not as comfortable as the Blackhawk, but it does have basically a whole second controller molded under a hand with thumbstick throttle and triggers where left hand rests.
https://www.cnet.com/products/gravis-xterminator-dual-control-joystick-wired/

Reminds me of the Madcatz Panther XL joysticks with their integrated trackball next to the joystick, which I do not have.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_XL

5) Microsoft SideWinder Percision Pro (digital gameport w/usb)(twist) I consider this a typical win98 era flight stick.
https://www.cnet.com/products/microsoft-sidewinder-precision-pro-joystick-wired-series/
Fun stuff here. I have several of these gamepads too, including the Dual Strike a flightpad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_SideWinder

6) Madcatz Pacific Aviator (Pacific AV8R)Xbox 360 version (usb)(twist) appears to have two more buttons than the ps3 version, Also appears to be the same with a slightly modified triger as the Saitek AV8R-01. I actually picked this up new with a copy of Damage Inc. from Good Will. Seems to work alright, not that I really have a choice on the xbox 360, although I couldn't get the hang of aiming at ground targets in a ww2 fighter plane in that game so I never really got into it. Only flight stick that I am aware of for the Xbox 360, and one of two joysticks. I know MadCatz stuff can be hit or miss, luckily I think they just licenced the design, instead of making them themselves, and Saitek seems to have been around for a while, though I'm less familiar with their products.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUVUF_xAswQ

7) Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. (usb)(twisting)digging this thing back down, its ergonomics aren't too bad. No idea how I got it. Seems like everyone ends up with one in their collection. I have seen robot arms controlled with it, but read many times that it is a poor substitute for a HOTAS controller in current Flight Sims. Darvond who provided the link, seems to disagree. Isn't this like the default late XP early Win7 joystick?
https://www.logitechg.com/en-us/products/gamepads/extreme-3d-pro-joystick.963290-0403.html
Post edited May 08, 2020 by Scrapack
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Scrapack: -Holy snip, Batman!-
To the relevant part: Don't recall. Haven't held a proper PS2 controller in over a decade. Buttons feel like SNES buttons. Grip feels grippy. I've used the thing for hours without feeling buttery; has a nice matte texture.
If Microsoft still made and sold its Sidwinder Pro, I would probably pick it up. For my preference, the throttle was placed better than the Logitech's Extreme, and the 4 buttons above it felt to be in a more natural place to use without looking.

I have also had owned a CH Flightstick Pro back around the time Tie Fighter came out. The company still makes a product similar to it, so it could be assumed that the style still works well even today.

Most of my joysticks stop working after about 3 years, which is typical in how manufacturers design computer products. End of life is generally 5-7 years, with warranties only going to about 3 or 4 years (if you purchase the warranty during the first year of ownership).
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ZyloxDragon: If Microsoft still made and sold its Sidwinder Pro, I would probably pick it up. For my preference, the throttle was placed better than the Logitech's Extreme, and the 4 buttons above it felt to be in a more natural place to use without looking.

I have also had owned a CH Flightstick Pro back around the time Tie Fighter came out. The company still makes a product similar to it, so it could be assumed that the style still works well even today.

Most of my joysticks stop working after about 3 years, which is typical in how manufacturers design computer products. End of life is generally 5-7 years, with warranties only going to about 3 or 4 years (if you purchase the warranty during the first year of ownership).
Some people say the Genesis 6 bbutton was the perfect gamepad, I say it was the PS2 gamepad. I found the Genesis controller felt too small, and have bought multiple 6B Gen style PC alternatives, and liked the Microsoft SideWinder Game Pad USB the most of the ones I tried. In fact I liked it so much that when the gameports were dropped from OS support I bought the USB variant since the digital gameport wasn't compatible with sidewinder dongles or analog adapters.



That's one of the reasons I liked the Playstation 2 controllers. I must have dropped one in particular a few hundred times or more onto a stone tile floor, and the wiring was visibly, terribly twisted inside the jacket from people winding it tightly, and there was the rage quits with the literal throwing against the first non-tv solid object in site, before it started to have issues, and even then it worked on most games that didn't constantly check that it was DualShock 2 like Burnout Revenge does. My gamecube and xbox 360 controllers on the other hand, well I might use the shells to make lamps, or usb hubs, or something. PS2 controllers are the Nokias of the video game world. Maybe I'm lucky all my 20 year old joysticks still seem to work, but if they die, I'll be getting the deoxit and the soldering irons out.
CLEAR!!! [buzzz] Still not detected, CLEAR! ...

The BlackHawk Digital has a big steel bar lever extending into the base the handle is bolted to, and a bunch of shinny metal weights inside. It's biggest downfall is that it's the only Gravis Digital I know without a compatible usb adapter. I am suprised that all these 20 year old gamepads and joysticks still have driver support, especially since it means some of the Gravis joysticks outlived the company in terms of number or operating systems. Gravis didn't seem to skimp on thick plastics for any device I've bought of theirs. They're built like tanks.