You don't have to have a master's degree to form educated opinions.

Empathy, which you seem to have, counts for a lot, but so does skepticism. Read some Machiavelli and you'll be plenty qualified.


lol

Another interesting point, especially as the Brexit camp seems to inexorably associate itself with repealing the Human Rights Act 1998, which is not legally possible without withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights. Only two countries are not signatories to the ECHR - Belarus and Kazakhstan. That should pretty much explain it all.

Hell, even Russia is a member of the Council of Europe and a signatory to the ECHR, although it could certainly be argued that this in and of itself attests to the toothlessness of the treaty.

I'm not sure the EU will allow any country access to the Single Market that unilaterally withdraws from the ECHR, although that is untested, especially given that every country joining the EU has been a member of the Council of Europe. Withdrawal from the ECHR would certainly result in the UK's expulsion from the Council of Europe.

And even if, by some miracle, Britain did withdraw from the ECHR and still rejoin the Single Market, I expect that those bellyaching about the Human Rights Act are going to be sorely disappointed about the British Bill of Rights if they're expecting prisoners to be deprived of the right to vote or freedom of religion to be suspended.

I've said it before, but I want Brits to vote YES for Brexit, for two (partly maybe contradictory) reasons:

1. I think the EU commission and elite need to be reminded that more and more people in EU countries are not happy how EU currently works. When EU-critical parties come to power in different countries, the EU elite don't even try to see why that is.

If the people in EU countries are overall against EU becoming "stronger" (meaning decisions come from European commission, not from governments), then listen to them! Stop trying to make EU to something that people in EU countries don't want it to be. UK is now a good example of that, so I am kinda glad UK voters are now flexing their muscles a bit.

I am also disgusted even to Finnish politicians who oddly are very EU-friendly (like saying yes to everything the commission says without any objection, like a loyal lapdog)... and then a bit later they move to some high-paying position in the Brussels. Figures, they had apparently just trying to please the EU elite (instead of e.g. Finnish voters), to become one of them. Jyrki Katainen is one good example. As soon as a Finnish politician becomes a MEP or something, he seems to become a full supporter of EU. Why shouldn't they, that's who is paying their wages?


2. On the other hand, I am also a bit disgusted EU has freeriders like Britain (and also Sweden) among them, who have better benefits than other EU countries. It raises ill will among countries. Remind me, how did Britain and Sweden participate in the Greek bailout packages, considering that with that money e.g. British banks were saved? Only through IMF? So in this sense maybe it would be good such countries leave EU.

Anyway, as someone already suggested, I think Brits will unfortunately vote no. People who say yes in the polls will largely just decide not to vote. People are afraid of change, when they are in charge of making the decision. Similar as to the Scotland referendum. Most probably EU leaders will offer yet more benefits to UK (over other countries like Finland), and at the same time German politicians keep threatening what happens to UK if they exit.

Since you have chosen to hide your country in the avatar: what country would that be?

Off-topic: why do many people mark their country in the avatar as "Other"? Is it simply because they don't want other forum members to know where they are from, or does it affect GOG pricing or something? I presume no for the latter, doesn't it come from some IP location etc.?

I had set it as Vanuatu for a long time, until GOG started with the whole regional currency thing. Feel it's just so utterly unimportant and actually a distraction to online debate. Plus - where I am from, personally, to me is a question near impossible to answer. I've grown up in Germany, but left when I was 19. Lived in Belgium, then Sweden, then the UK after. All those other countries feel as home to certain degrees - or rather the areas that I lived in, do, and the friends I made belong to what constitutes home. All three influenced the course of my life and what happened in it.

I am no longer really 'from' a specific country. Which leads back to the point that I feel it's just not important, more of a hindrance, to include that information as standard on an internet forum.

Hey Brits, look at this way. The EU is bound to crumble sooner or later. Would you rather lead the charge in dismantling an old and superfluous political institution, or would you rather clean up the mess after everyone else has already left the party? I say get out while the getting is good.

Screw the loans and the fear mongering about financial collapse. You took care of yourselves before. You want to be babysat by a bunch of whiny bureaucrats? Be an example to prove why English is still the most spoken language in the western world. Be leaders, not followers.

Cock Sparrer - England Belongs To Me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DrkHBRSAp4

I agree on your first point.

Come again on your second? How is Sweden a "freerider"? We're smart enough to say no to the Euro (I guess you mean this. Dunno how that can be seen as "freeriding".), balance our national budget, have a working economy AND pay lots and lots of money to EU so we very much contribute to EU. Besides our politicians fooled their citizens with the Euro vote. They've already signed a paper that say Sweden will have to join the Euro (EU is basically holding Swedens economy hostage. We don't behave they can start to threaten us. EU most probably wont but if they like they CAN force Sweden to join the Euro since EU laws go before our national laws. Sovereign nation my arse.) it's only a matter of when. I guess Swedens politicians was getting tired of ruling a sovereign nation that had power over their own economy which is HUGELY important in what politics a nation can use.

Thanks for clarifying that -- it was late when I posted, and I couldn't remember whichever institutions really applied.

I agree that it's weird some rules don't apply to all countries. I doesn't help in creating a positive feeling about the EU or the member states that have such rulings.
Something that's missing in most western European countries and is caused by the lack of democracy and transparency and the deafness for what people want or don't want.

The bullshit propaganda we see now in an attempt to scare voters to stay in the EU, looks like the same crap we got with the Ukrain referendum. We all know how that ended.

Calling Britain and Sweden freeriders is too easy. Both contribute more money than they get back.
Swedish people are per person even the 2nd biggest contributor to the EU:
https://inews.co.uk/explainers/charts/much-uk-pays-eu-much-get-back/

I presume Sweden didn't participate in bailout packages to Greece and PIIGS, because not being part of euro? Maybe it is more correct to say I am envious of Sweden (and UK) dodging the bullet like that. The argument goes that only those countries who use euro should participate in the bailout, but that doesn't make it right considering one of the biggest "beneficiary" from the bailouts were UK banks (as well as German and French banks), yet UK itself didn't participate in it (other than some tiny sum through IMF maybe, just like all other IMF members)..

I recall reading somewhere that at least the original idea was that all EU member states will eventually take euro as their currency, so the state where e.g. UK and Sweden are now was supposed to be only an intermediate state for them, not something where they remain (if they wish to stay in EU zone). Maybe this rule doesn't apply anymore, possibly as Germany and France saw UK will never join euro.

It is... until someone mentions "in my country". Then I am puzzled am I either supposed to know from which country the person is, or is it really unimportant to his argument what his country (which he is using as an example) is?

"You know, in my country slavery still exists, and the police is never charged for killing innocent bystanders.". Oh ok, in which country do these things allegedly happen? Germany? Vanuatu? Mexico? Nigeria? North Korea? Other?

The UK is one of the biggest contributors to the EU budget, I don't think it is fair to describe them as freeloaders.

The obligation to join the Euro is binding for all new members and is part of the Maastrich Treaty. That has been the case since it was signed in 1993. Sweden joined in '95. There are clear criteria for joining which currently aren't met by Sweden and there is no deadline for them to comply. Even, if Sweden wanted to join tommorow, it couldn't.

Yup, only countries which use Euro bailed out PIIGS. ECB stuff, basically Germans dictated who, what, how much went etc

That's true I think. As far as I know Sweden did not partake in the bailout of Greece or European banks. It should be noted that we've had our share of bank bailouts but fortunately Sweden managed to do it ourselves every time.

As far as I know the rule applies still. The politicians probably haven't done it yet because of the massive outcry it would cause from the public.
We couldn't? I thought Sweden was one of few European countries that actually met the criteria.

Didn't UK and Denmark negotiate away the automatic join Euro part?