Breja: When I say that there can be a genocidal character with some redeeming qualities I don't mean that neccesarily makes them likeable or exonerated. That redeeming quality may be just one aspect of a character, not a "get out of hell free" card. To outright deny the possibility of a quality like that is to deny the very existance of some very interesting stories.

toxicTom: Uprated your post and marked it as spam... because I can.
toxicTom: ^word.

BlueMooner: I have trouble believing your claim that you're black. I say this because the argument you're making is the same one I see time and again in other places online, that whites in the West are somehow being persecuted and oppressed horribly. The fact that you think you'll be banned for saying so tells me you're used to this response, telling me this isn't the first time you've posted about the poor white man. Which is why I think you're actually a white man, claiming to be a black man to make your "whites are suffering" argument more palatable. I don't buy it, but ultimately, it doesn't matter.

What bothers me most is the illogic of your whole thread here. If you ACTUALLY cared about racism in games, then you sure as hell wouldn't be complaining of a SINGLE game with no whites. Really, the first game in existence with no whites is RACIST against whites??? I don't think you know what racism is. There are a million games out there where you can only play as white men. So those are racist, right? Why aren't you complaining of those million games, instead on the one game without whites? If you'll make one thread over one game without whites, where are your million threads on the million games with only whites? And what about all the other races rarely if ever represented in games, as if blacks and whites are all that existed?? This is why I don't believe you're being honest. And as someone else pointed out, apparently white women don't count as whites. Way to show you're thinking of others. /s

A further point in passing is your argument about slavery. You take issue with people claiming whites in the West started slavery, telling everyone it's not fair to single whites out for that, but then feel no hypocrisy in claiming white christian men ended slavery. Guess what, white xian men DID start slavery in the West, did own other human beings for centuries, did justify it with the bible, and yes, did finally end it. But ending an evil that you started is hardly a great thing, is it? If I dump toxic waste on your home and property and leave it there for centuries before cleaning it up, am I a great person?

The reason some people complain about negative or absent portrayals of certain demographics in games and other media, is as part of a much larger issue of discrimination and invisibility that that demo is dealing with. It's not an issue in and of itself, but one piece of numerous pieces in the whole. It's media representation AND laws AND education AND prisons AND culture AND violence AND labor AND housing AND so on.... Are whites in the West being targetted for murder in large numbers? Raped? Imprisoned? Discriminated against let alone persecuted or even oppressed? No... not the slightest bit.

Did this game even present whites in a horrible way, using negative and offensive stereotypes? No? Did it add to the public's view that whites are worthless scum that should be exiled or imprisoned or killed? No?? Then no, there's zero racism here.

Now please, spend your time fighting for ACTUAL causes, because there isn't anti-white racism in games. Well, except Othello.

metal_dawn: Thank you so much for this post. You've saved me the trouble and basically completely outlined my takeaway from this, what should be, throwaway thread.

It's a little bit depressing how this false contraversy balloons to 7 pages rapidly in a gaming forum.

Arundir: I like the 80s Synthpop.

BlueMooner: What bothers me most is the illogic of your whole thread here. If you ACTUALLY cared about racism in games, then you sure as hell wouldn't be complaining of a SINGLE game with no whites. Really, the first game in existence with no whites is RACIST against whites??? I don't think you know what racism is. There are a million games out there where you can only play as white men. So those are racist, right? Why aren't you complaining of those million games, instead on the one game without whites?

LootHunter: Because there are lots of people who DO complain that any game without black character is racist. The only thing Socratatus did is applying same the logic of people who bash Kingdom Come Deliverance, Witcher or Baldur's Gate for absence of black characters.

BlueMooner: I have trouble believing your claim that you're black. I say this because the argument you're making is the same one I see time and again in other places online, that whites in the West are somehow being persecuted and oppressed horribly. The fact that you think you'll be banned for saying so tells me you're used to this response, telling me this isn't the first time you've posted about the poor white man. Which is why I think you're actually a white man, claiming to be a black man to make your "whites are suffering" argument more palatable. I don't buy it, but ultimately, it doesn't matter.

What bothers me most is the illogic of your whole thread here. If you ACTUALLY cared about racism in games, then you sure as hell wouldn't be complaining of a SINGLE game with no whites. Really, the first game in existence with no whites is RACIST against whites??? I don't think you know what racism is. There are a million games out there where you can only play as white men. So those are racist, right? Why aren't you complaining of those million games, instead on the one game without whites? If you'll make one thread over one game without whites, where are your million threads on the million games with only whites? And what about all the other races rarely if ever represented in games, as if blacks and whites are all that existed?? This is why I don't believe you're being honest. And as someone else pointed out, apparently white women don't count as whites. Way to show you're thinking of others. /s

A further point in passing is your argument about slavery. You take issue with people claiming whites in the West started slavery, telling everyone it's not fair to single whites out for that, but then feel no hypocrisy in claiming white christian men ended slavery. Guess what, white xian men DID start slavery in the West, did own other human beings for centuries, did justify it with the bible, and yes, did finally end it. But ending an evil that you started is hardly a great thing, is it? If I dump toxic waste on your home and property and leave it there for centuries before cleaning it up, am I a great person?

The reason some people complain about negative or absent portrayals of certain demographics in games and other media, is as part of a much larger issue of discrimination and invisibility that that demo is dealing with. It's not an issue in and of itself, but one piece of numerous pieces in the whole. It's media representation AND laws AND education AND prisons AND culture AND violence AND labor AND housing AND so on.... Are whites in the West being targetted for murder in large numbers? Raped? Imprisoned? Discriminated against let alone persecuted or even oppressed? No... not the slightest bit.

Did this game even present whites in a horrible way, using negative and offensive stereotypes? No? Did it add to the public's view that whites are worthless scum that should be exiled or imprisoned or killed? No?? Then no, there's zero racism here.

Now please, spend your time fighting for ACTUAL causes, because there isn't anti-white racism in games. Well, except Othello.

BlueMooner: But ending an evil that you started is hardly a great thing, is it? If I dump toxic waste on your home and property and leave it there for centuries before cleaning it up, am I a great person?

BlueMooner: No, he did not. Please re-read the part you quoted. Please note that I said "single game", with emphasis on "single".

LootHunter: And what's a difference between one game and a million?

DaCostaBR: 999.999 games worth of representation, for starters.

DaCostaBR: 999.999 games worth of representation, for starters.

LootHunter: So, you really believe that the same person, who owned first slaves was actually alive and make moves to abolish slavery centuries later?

LootHunter: And what's a difference between one game and a million?

BlueMooner: Socratatus said it was completely unfair to blame christian white men for starting slavery, but had no problem crediting them for ending it.

BlueMooner: False equivalence