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I sunk a ton of hours into this years ago but my god... i don't recall it ever being so hard! I was determined to carry a party through the first game (with the help of an automapper) and on into EoB2 but dear lord... I might have to give up!

Seriously, the way the levels are designed it's damn near impossible to manually make a map. Some of the traps are just downright unfair. Anyone else having trouble?
If you think mapping EoB is hard, you should try games like Bard's Tale 2, Chaos Strikes Back and Wizardry 4.
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PetrusOctavianus: If you think mapping EoB is hard, you should try games like Bard's Tale 2, Chaos Strikes Back and Wizardry 4.
Actually, I could point out:

Chaos Strikes Back is *dense*. In particular, each part of the dungeon is quite distinctive, so it is easy to figure out where you are. It's much easier to get lost in the original Dungeon Master. The game may be

Bard's Tale 2 has one thing EoB and CSB do not: a cheap spell that gives you your coordinates in the dungeon. That spell even works in anti-magic zones! The mazes also aren't full of traps designed to make it hard to map like the others. (There are teleporters, but they're not that common, and there is an item that disables those annoying spinners.) Also, the Apple IIgs version has an automap feature. The timed Death Snares are dense and distinctive that you shouldn't need to map them; the one time you encounter a maze there is a clue that gives you the directions.

Wizardry 4 also has a spell that gives you your coordinates, as well as a fairly common item that can cast it for you if 9 casts aren't enough. (Interestingly enough, there is also the PlayStation version (in New Age of Llylgamyn) that includes an auto-map that is preserved when you die (notice, I said when, not if; the game does like to kill you, and the PSX version isn't any more lenient about that).)
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PetrusOctavianus: If you think mapping EoB is hard, you should try games like Bard's Tale 2, Chaos Strikes Back and Wizardry 4.
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dtgreene: Actually, I could point out:

Chaos Strikes Back is *dense*. In particular, each part of the dungeon is quite distinctive, so it is easy to figure out where you are. It's much easier to get lost in the original Dungeon Master. The game may be

Bard's Tale 2 has one thing EoB and CSB do not: a cheap spell that gives you your coordinates in the dungeon. That spell even works in anti-magic zones! The mazes also aren't full of traps designed to make it hard to map like the others. (There are teleporters, but they're not that common, and there is an item that disables those annoying spinners.) Also, the Apple IIgs version has an automap feature. The timed Death Snares are dense and distinctive that you shouldn't need to map them; the one time you encounter a maze there is a clue that gives you the directions.

Wizardry 4 also has a spell that gives you your coordinates, as well as a fairly common item that can cast it for you if 9 casts aren't enough. (Interestingly enough, there is also the PlayStation version (in New Age of Llylgamyn) that includes an auto-map that is preserved when you die (notice, I said when, not if; the game does like to kill you, and the PSX version isn't any more lenient about that).)
Have you actually played these games?
You are definitely wrong about CSB. The same graphics are used throughout the whole game, and in the beginning most areas you visit are not connected.
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dtgreene: Actually, I could point out:

Chaos Strikes Back is *dense*. In particular, each part of the dungeon is quite distinctive, so it is easy to figure out where you are. It's much easier to get lost in the original Dungeon Master. The game may be

Bard's Tale 2 has one thing EoB and CSB do not: a cheap spell that gives you your coordinates in the dungeon. That spell even works in anti-magic zones! The mazes also aren't full of traps designed to make it hard to map like the others. (There are teleporters, but they're not that common, and there is an item that disables those annoying spinners.) Also, the Apple IIgs version has an automap feature. The timed Death Snares are dense and distinctive that you shouldn't need to map them; the one time you encounter a maze there is a clue that gives you the directions.

Wizardry 4 also has a spell that gives you your coordinates, as well as a fairly common item that can cast it for you if 9 casts aren't enough. (Interestingly enough, there is also the PlayStation version (in New Age of Llylgamyn) that includes an auto-map that is preserved when you die (notice, I said when, not if; the game does like to kill you, and the PSX version isn't any more lenient about that).)
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PetrusOctavianus: Have you actually played these games?
You are definitely wrong about CSB. The same graphics are used throughout the whole game, and in the beginning most areas you visit are not connected.
I have played all three of these games.

The graphics may be the same in CSB, but the dungeon layout is designed in such a way that there are plenty of landmarks to let you know where you are. Hence, as you get more familiar with the dungeon, you will recognize many of the areas, which is useful if you get lost.

Also, Bard's Tale 2 isn't in the same league of the others in terms of mapping difficulty, anyway.

Edit: To explain what I mean in CSB, consider things like this:
1. Wall says "NO FIREBALLS". (Or, you cast a fireball and it blows up in your face.) There is only one place in the game like that.
2. Dragons and pits. There is, again, only one place like that. Similarly, a different place has dragons and metal gates. Again, only one place like that.
3. There is only one place in the game where screamers appear.
4. A certain place has worms that appear every time you step on the square by the metal gate. Again, if this happens, you know where you are.

Thing is, while that game may be hard to traditionally map, you are unlikely to get lost because each place in the dungeon is different, even if the walls look the same. (In the other games mentioned, Scry Site/DUMAPIC makes mapping relatively straightforward (barring the occasional Wizardry 4 floor that is *really* hard to map) and will fix any problems of being lost.)
Post edited October 08, 2015 by dtgreene
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GogglyGogol: I sunk a ton of hours into this years ago but my god... i don't recall it ever being so hard! I was determined to carry a party through the first game (with the help of an automapper) and on into EoB2 but dear lord... I might have to give up!

Seriously, the way the levels are designed it's damn near impossible to manually make a map. Some of the traps are just downright unfair. Anyone else having trouble?
Which traps exactly?

The biggest problem that I always had with the first EOB was it's nonlinearity. Because of the teleporter gate system I could easily skip large portions of the game and would not even be aware of it.
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GogglyGogol: I sunk a ton of hours into this years ago but my god... i don't recall it ever being so hard! I was determined to carry a party through the first game (with the help of an automapper) and on into EoB2 but dear lord... I might have to give up!

Seriously, the way the levels are designed it's damn near impossible to manually make a map. Some of the traps are just downright unfair. Anyone else having trouble?
Have you ever tried Dungeon Master 2? Bloody hard as well. Virtually up there with Cannon Fodder ;-).
Post edited October 26, 2015 by patricklibuda
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GogglyGogol: I sunk a ton of hours into this years ago but my god... i don't recall it ever being so hard! I was determined to carry a party through the first game (with the help of an automapper) and on into EoB2 but dear lord... I might have to give up!

Seriously, the way the levels are designed it's damn near impossible to manually make a map. Some of the traps are just downright unfair. Anyone else having trouble?
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patricklibuda: Have you ever tried Dungeon Master 2? Bloody hard as well. Virtually up there with Cannon Fodder ;-).
Dungeon Master 2 at least gives you an automap item. Also, it is generally considered easier than the original, and it is *definitely* easier than Chaos Strikes Back. (Although, I believe some versions of CSB actually had an automap item and some spells for it that actually used the GOR rune.)
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patricklibuda: Have you ever tried Dungeon Master 2? Bloody hard as well. Virtually up there with Cannon Fodder ;-).
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dtgreene: Dungeon Master 2 at least gives you an automap item. Also, it is generally considered easier than the original, and it is *definitely* easier than Chaos Strikes Back. (Although, I believe some versions of CSB actually had an automap item and some spells for it that actually used the GOR rune.)
the passing coins stuff drive me nuts at the time ;-)