Alright, let me clear this up for you then.
It used to be that an average worker spent 10-12 hours a day at work, six days a week. This changed for the better.
It used to be that children as young as 5 were used for labour in factories. This changed for the better.
I am very aware that these things still happen in some countries, which I hope changes....for the better.
If this is a left leaning agenda then OK (all good) as the opposite would mean we'd still be working 10-12 hours a day, six days a week (for table scraps).

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Your entire post--your entire response to me--is a straw man.

You are "refuting" the position that office work is fun. I never so much as implied such a thing.

You are "refuting" the position that office work isn't hard--it's not only the easiest thing in the world, but one normally doesn't even have to do anything! I never so much as implied anything so asinine.

You are "refuting" the position that "any conditions are acceptable conditions". I never so much as implied such a thing. Safety measures and toxic waste???

The only points I made were that, if one were to go to such a studio as is under scrutiny--crunch period or not--and observe the proceedings, one would find absolutely nothing that any reasonable person would find incredible, disgusting, unnerving, or at all worthy of writing home about or discussing at the dinner table.

And also that the sentiments expressed by the OP, apparently in complete earnestness, are indicative of the ridiculousness of the propaganda being disseminated. Let me reiterate: Any reasonable person would assume without question that OP's post was facetious--if he didn't already know that people have been led to think this way.

I have only stated sober facts regarding the reality of the subject in question, and you have failed to demonstrate that anything I have actually said is illegitimate.

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I've already acquired the knowledge, but thanks. As I indicated before, the longest hours I've worked in an office environment were 55-hour weeks, sometimes less, sometimes more.

I worked as a proofreader. I could drink as much coffee as I wished, but I couldn't slack off. My job involved stuff literally piling up on my desk--in real time. The typesetters whipped through their jobs and tossed them in the bins, one after the other, and it was the job of the proofers to scrutinize each one for errors. I can assure you that proofreading is not an occupation in which one can simply cruise on idle, mindlessly.

If one of us made a mistake, the job came right back to us. If the typesetters made a mistake a second, or third time, it came right back to us. The reason why the hours were variable was that we didn't leave the building until ALL of the jobs were done. In the quick print business, ALL print jobs had to be done by the next day. There was no putting the rest of the jobs off until later. That's why I once worked a 17-hour shift.

Neither I nor anyone else had any problems during my time there, and I'm positive that the status quo I describe is far less preferable to crunch time at the video game studio. Your condescension is duly noted, but I know exactly what it's like to work under pressure for extended hours, months at a time.

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Why do you put "the left" in quotes, as if it is an imaginary concept? I find that curious.

I'm not imagining anything. Leftists have been talking about the "need" to unionize the video game industry for some time now. If you are suggesting that there is no correlation between that, and the efforts to make people view video game employees during crunch time as miserably abused and barely able to cope, I submit that you are denying reality.

You made another post in which you made assertions on the subject of anti-science that are simply incorrect. I agreed that that particular thread was neither the appropriate nor most efficient place to discuss things further, and welcomed you to use the chat feature. The offer still stands.

I am never, under any circumstances, unwilling to engage in civil discussion about important subjects, as my only goal is to seek truth, and the worst that can happen as a result of such an encounter is that I discover I'm wrong about something. Do you continually subject your views to scrutiny as per the scientific method, or do you only defend your views from attack as does the religious fanatic or cultist?

I'm sorry, what's your point again? And which facts?

Dryspace, you said this:

The main point is that what is inarguably one of the best kinds of jobs that a human being can have in the world: working in an air-conditioned office building, sitting on one's backside drinking coffee--and let's not forget that most people in video games are fortunate enough to be doing what they want to be doing for work, unlike the majority of people in the world--for 40 or 50 hours a week, is somehow a horrible, horrible situation.

I see an implict message that office work, being the best kind of job, where one is just sitting on one's backside while drinking coffee, is not hard. Unlike the jobs most people have. And the office class even get to do what "they want to be doing" for work. Since the topic is crunch, the inevitable conclusion must be that a bit of crunch can't really be a big deal. It's not like this work is physically demanding, just sitting on your bum, drinking a whole lot of coffee.

Now, if I'm reading too much into that, if you're not trying to say that office crunch is never a big deal, that software development crunch is never a big deal, then that is great. Then we don't disagree and there's really nothing to fight over.

That aside, you ask why I'm putting "the left" in quotes. That is because your perception of "the left" appears to target what, in my view, for lack of a better term would be a construct. Obviously there are lefties that fit your description, but you're presenting those people as if their nuttery is representative of lefties in general. Considering most of Europe would qualify as leftist by American standards, and considering Europe doesn't quite match your description, it pretty much goes without saying that your idea of "left" must necessarily be somewhat inaccurate.

As far as unions in the video game industry, that isn't really a theme over here. If they want to be in a union, they can join or form a union. They have that right. Is that not the case in the US?
https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/28-right-collective-bargaining-and-action

Unions do not solve all issues, however. Unions can maybe ensure some formal rules and right to compensation, but they can't make up for bad management and obviously it will likely cause long term employment issues if you start throwing your union after your place of employment. You can't be fired for being in a union, but you can get fired for being late, having poor attitude, lack of compentence, and so on. I would imagine that this is also the case in the US?

Finally, regarding anti-science, there are absolutely plonkers on the left also. I am not disputing that. But the right is currently home to hyper-religious dogma, historical revisionism to please the nationalists, idiocy about how masks filter out oxygen and whatnot, and of course some fancy ideas about how climate change is a conspiracy. There's some very lovely race theory too. Oh, and that 5G causes covid nonsense, and something about Bill Gates and microchips in vaccines.

And every single one of those things is anti-scientific garbage, and I must admit that I really don't see the point of chatting about those things in detail. I've done that in the past and it just does not lead to anything but grief. The point I really wanted to get to, then and now, is that anti-science isn't a left-right thing but rather a question of rationalism versus extremism.

Anyway, I thank you for being civil. That is always a very nice change of pace when politics get involved.

Oh, and no, I would not say that I "subject my views to scrutiny" as such, as to me that would imply an active search for arguments, but I'm almost always happy to share my thoughts and why I feel the way I do. I used to be rather argumentative and confrontational, back when I was younger, but it had a tendency to destroy any and all discussion that was taking place. And I have to admit that I don't quite feel the same urge to "dominate" discussions that I used to.

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You responded to your assumptions about what I think, instead of what I actually said. I made no claims about office work in general.

The subject is video game production and crunches, and I'm not aware of any reason to assume that one is suddenly discussing office work in general. Everything I stated is a fact: A video game employee works in an air-conditioned office, sits in a chair, drinks coffee (if he so desires), and unlike the majority of people in the world, usually is doing what he wants to do for money. For whatever reason, you illegitimately interpreted that to mean that is all such an employee does.

I gave a brief illustration of work and working conditions that are among the best that any person can expect to have on this earth--especially if one includes all jobs in any country. I was attempting to establish an accurate and reasonable perspective. Considering the actual situation we are referring to, it is ridiculous in my opinion to be drumming up a crisis regarding the welfare of such individuals. Again, we see how people are being led to think, and it's amazingly out of proportion to reality.

If you believe that video game employees are by no means, for any length of time, being taken advantage of, abused, or worked harder than a human being has any expectation to be worked, then we agree.

Allow me to reiterate what I indicated before: I am positive that anyone who installed himself in the office of CDPR would not find the smallest evidence of any human suffering whatever. Further, he would have no idea that it was crunch time unless someone told him that it was. He would have no idea that anything other than normal office work was taking place. For argument's sake, it's possible that a given individual may not like to work more than a certain number of hours, or to deal with more than a certain amount of stress, but that's a far cry from the claim that an entire occupation or work environment is over the top. Can you honestly disagree with any of this?

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You're mistaken, but you're right about one thing: I am talking about a construct. I am talking about leftism, the ideology, and I assure you that I have a pretty firm grasp of its foundations and manifestations after having specifically studied it for many years.

I'm aware of the difference between an idea and an individual. Regarding leftism, I understand the difference between the "Elites" and the "rank and file". To put it bluntly, the Liars and the Lied To. It is the same situation with any number of ideologies: You have a relatively tiny number of people who know, for the most part, "what's up", and who deceive--even if some convince themselves what they're doing is For the Best--and you have the vast majority who believe that what they are told is reality. The Catholic Church succeeded marvelously at this, and the left is following in its footsteps.

I can elaborate, and I also repeat that you are mistaken about several views regarding science and the left/anti-left, and also unions in the U.S. But from experience I do not find the forum at all conducive to discussion or debate. I encourage you to add me to your list, and message me when you see me online, so that we can try the chat feature. I have no desire to "convince" anyone of anything, because when it comes to truth, it is only fact and logic that are convincing.

The mental gymnastics here are....staggering.

Dryspace, you are not very easy to talk to. :-)

Let me try to summarize regarding the crunch thing. You are making a very aggressive claim about the actual situation we are referring to, meaning CDPR's end game crunch for CP77. How I read your justification is that because the physical conditions (nice office, comfy chairs, coffee) then it is ridiculous to drum up a crisis of welfare for the affected individuals. At no point do you comment on the mental side of things, however. Am I overlooking anything? Misrepresenting anything?

Your description of developer working conditions is not quite factual. Not all developers have their own offices, particularly not in the current situation. Not all offices are air-conditioned (that's a very US-centric idea, I suspect). Coffee-drinking is usually accepted except in proximity to expensive company hardware. And I very strongly suspect that a vast number of developers are absolutely not doing "what they want to do" for money.

Generally speaking, it is a mistake to try summarize the desires of a diverse group of people and referring to said summary as "factual". Facts must by definition be true and you cannot in any way establish that your summary actually is remotely true. This is an error of both language and logic.

Anyway, you then boil it down to a claim that "video game employees" are by no means for any length of time being taken advantage of, abused, or worked harder than any human should expect. And it is unclear to me if that is still limited to the current situation at CDPR or to "video game employees" in general, at which point the claim becomes a suggestion that crunch in video games simply isn't a problem.

I have already said that I don't think going from 40 to 48 hours for six weeks with full compensation is abusive. I will stand by that claim. However, this does not change anything about the general issue of crunch in development and indeed in a bunch of areas where complex non-routine work has to be ready on a deadline. I my view, it is a general problem, not just in video games, not just in software development, but in office working in general.

And you ignoring the mental factors does not sit well with me. The human psyche is somewhat fragile and prone to breaking down. Yours. Mine. We're all somewhat vulnerable to it, obviously there is a variance as to how soon we break, but everybody can be broken. If you think this is irrelevant to a discussion about work environment then I'm almost lost for words.

Regarding politics, you're arguing that you know something about "the left", but what exactly justifies that claim? Some posturing and an elaboration that in leftism one is either "the liar" or "the lied to" in leftist-land? That's a bit too much aluminum foil for my hat, if you will pardon me for being that blunt, and if you'll pardon even further bluntness then I urge you to consider why this would be applicable only on the left. I mean, you bring up the Catholic Church yourself. That is a right wing organization.

Your claim could be in the general vicinity of a reasonable claim about "US leftists", but you have made no such distinction. And frankly "US leftists", as defined by right-leaning people I've had conversations with in the past, would include Obama, Hillary, Nancy, and a bunch of other people that aren't really leftists outside of the US, so at present I am a bit skeptical whenever I hear the term used.

Lastly, on the science, I must repeat that I simply don't care to have a personal chat about wacky fringe conspiracy ideas. Anti-vaxxer nonsense, race theory, YEC and anti-evolution noise, all that climate-change-is-global-conspiracy laugh and a half... That's not science and I repeat that having a personal chat about why those things are not science does not appeal to me.

I sometimes look back at my blue collar past with fond memories. Yes, the work was physically demanding, but the stress. Or should I say the lack of stress. It was wonderful. You work your ass off, being physically tired, then resting, and then doing more work. It was... relaxing in its own way. When I was doing double shifts in a print house, I had no idea what stress could be. But now... yes, I sit a lot, but as you mentioned earlier, it's like doing sudoku 10 hours straight with no pause, except you also have a deadline pushing on and if you stop thinking even for a second, you lose "the flow" and it costs many valuable minutes to get back. And when I was in the print house, if we messed up one customer's order, it was delayed a bit, no biggie. Now, if we mess up something, we might lose the company.

My sympathies go 100% to the workers at CDPR. I had their situation last year and it was the most stressful and the most demanding job I have ever had. (I am still working there, but we don't have the crunch at the moment.) And I have worked as an accident site cleaner, mopping up guts and blood.

I work a six day crunch every day for the past three years doing graveyard shift from 11pm - 6am.
I'm pretty sure these devs will be fine sitting on their asses in air conditioned comfort, plugging in code..

I don't think you know what crunch means.

I don't think you have any idea what software development is like.

I work with my hands. I have been a supervisor though. That sitting at a screen all day takes it's toll believe me. I was very surprised how much. I hated it so much I begged for my toolbox back!

That said Mgmt in this case dropped the ball. but.there is nothing to be done but' wait. It will be good.
I like to think they got the message from the threads here but, I doubt it.

It is already done. The game is ready for us. Has been already. We're only waiting for them to finalise it for the current gen consoles.

https://www.game-debate.com/news/29800/cyberpunk-2077-is-ready-on-pc-but-current-gen-consoles-caused-recent-delay

edit: previous link didn't work. Try this one.

My bad.
Lets all hold hands and sing kumbaya for the brave coding souls out there risking finger and eye strain... Get a grip, it's vastly easier then any blue collar hard working job.

Really? In which software company have you worked during a crunch? What's your github? I mean, if you can compare, you probably have experience in the field.

edit: See, last year when our company had the crunch, I was already looking for blue collar jobs. I didn't apply, I saw the crunch through. I was even considering going back to the same job as one of my summer jobs as a kid: carrying bricks and mortar at a construction site. Working in a harbour was surprisingly hard, but boy was it relaxing compared to a software company. I have also worked in those aforementioned print house and accident site cleaning company, also as a security guard, warehouse, and... does military count as a job?

The point is that I know blue collar work. And it's relaxing. Way less demanding. You only need to move your body. I understand the stereotype in my industry: when you get a burnout, you go relaxing in a blue collar job. Last year I was close to quitting the industry and getting a job as a janitor or an accident site cleaner or anything but a thinking job.

Your job is our people's retreat. We come there to relax.

Best book I read in a while.
Is this based on my company? XD
Going through legacy code is such a breeze, we shouldn't even get paid for that ;9