I get annoyed fast by the 3-5 line they have.

Since doubling a character's experience does not double their level, I find spreading experience across a large group to be more useful. I'd rather have a group of 6 characters with an average level of N than a group of 3 with an average level of N+2. Even a Thief, with the fastest level progression, doesn't benefit much from a smaller party. If a 6 character party had collected 420000 experience, the Thief would have 70000 and reach level 8. If that same party is a solo Thief, the Thief would have all 420000 experience and would reach level 11 (but be somewhat close to level 12). Giving up 5 party members, their carrying capacity, damage output, etc. to get 3 extra levels (at best) seems like a really bad trade to me. I like having a party that does not need to savescum, nor regularly return to temples for resurrections, so I want my party to be effective enough in combat that I rarely have anyone die.

You don't need a party to win the game.
A solo character gains exp way faster, thus realises its potential faster, so can do whatever sooner. Convenient.
A party of 3 can consist a short-bow specialist, a long bow specialist, and a tank. One-click battles like solo game with the added benefit of more chance to disrupt spells, and a thief to do thief-stuff.
A party of 6 is time-consuming. Positioning units, the inevitable spellcaster-babysitting... Just think about it.

A large party (5-6) might be necessary for Legacy of Bhaal, or something, but otherwise aa timesink.

At sufficiently high levels, doubling a character's XP does (approximately) double their level.

Doubling the XP of a 15 level character will take them to around level 20; a level 20 character would become 30; a level 30 character would become 45; and a level 2010 character would become level 4010.

(Of course, this is ignoring the level and XP caps.)

That is an odd definition of level doubling. :) Doubling a level 15 character ought to take it to level 30, not level 20. Likewise, a 20 should become 40, not 30. I will grant that some classes see a sharp drop off in improvement as they reach epic levels, so getting less than a straight doubling of level is less of a loss than in games where the character level is used as a linear term in important rules (such as damage output = character level * 2). Since the original poster did not specify use of mods, I only considered the levels reachable in Baldur's Gate 1 / Baldur's Gate 2 / Throne of Bhaal and I excluded levels beyond 40 and any levels unreachable due to the XP cap.

The thing is, past level 10 or so (exact level depends on class), earning twice as much XP gives you twice as many levels. It's a characteristic of AD&D that's present in many other CRPGs, including Wizardry (except 4 and 8), Might & Magic (at least through 5, don't know about later), Dragon Quest (through at least 9), Final Fantasy (1 only), and of course all AD&D-based CRPG that allows levels high enough for this to apply. (The exact level at which this happens vary; in most Dragon Quest games, this happens past level 45 or so, where no AD&D-based (or D&D-based) CRPG, to my knowledge, goes.)

In the 3rd edition epic rules, characters gain +1 to hit for every 2 levels past 20, regardless of class. As I've pointed out elsewhere, at sufficiently high levels, this means that a small level difference (say, 1%), can mean the difference between 5% and 95% accuracy. (Of course, such examples end up involving level numbers high enough that you wouldn't see them outside of something like Disgaea, where balance doesn't break down as badly at those levels as something like D&D does.) Players who like multi-class mages do, particularly those who like the Fighter/Mage/Cleric, which is the closest the game has to a Final Fantasy Red Mage, a character type I really do like to put in the party when it's viable.. Try using a bard in Icewind Dale (with Heart of Winter installed, of course); bards are very useful there, being able to boost luck, and later even being able to provide health regeneration.

There's other (non-D&D) games with Bards with useful singing abilities, like the Bard's Tale series, and Final Fantasy games starting with 5 (and including 3D remakes of 3 and 4, but not the original 3 or 4, as it took 3 iterations for Squaresoft to finally make Bard useful),

Edit: A couple other Bard related things:
* I can confirm that the Bard's song (at least the Blade kit's version) will remove fear in BG2 classic.
* You may want to disable the AI if you're using a Bard to just sing. (Incidentally, I remember finding the combat a bit more enjoyable with the party AI off than with it on.)

I believe that issue comes as a result of having to manage individual positioning of each party member; it doesn't feel like the same issue in games like Wizardry and Bard's Tale, or typical JRPGs. (On the other hand, it is annoying in Ultima 4, and that game does feel much better solo, except that you can't actually beat the game without recruiting everyone.) Actually, I don't think BG2 Imoen (Irenicus's Dungeon version) matches BG2 Imoen (version recruited in Spellhold), so there isn't even inter-game consistency.

(Also, note that her belt, which is gone when she rejoins, is not explained at all; it's basically an implementation detail (it prevents her from dying so that she can give dialog and leave the party) that got exposed to the player.) The AD&D Bard has never felt like a Bard to me, certainly not in the way that Bard's Tale Bards feel, or even Final Fantasy 5 Bards. Thing is, such actions do not feel like the role a Bard should have. Bards should be primarily for support and maybe some free (or low-cost) party wide heals, not for dealing damage (Fire Horns aside).

I really do like Aerie's class, though.

(incidentally, with the right spells, she can hold her own in the front ranks, especially since I think she might be able to equip that one hammer that grants 25 STR, or something like that.)

yes can carry the hammer but the option to put cleric spells in a trigger is where she really owns the game

Yeah that belt was always an interesting way to have the game engine keep Imoen from getting smoked. Knowing something about how this game's engine works behind the scenes is always interesting.

I never noticed that there was a discrepancy between Starting-Imoen and Spellhold-Imoen. Curious to know what the difference is, if it's perhaps on purpose, based on what her character goes through while being prisoner in Spellhold.

Also, regarding bards:
Of course, the bard class in the BG games are based on the AD&D 2nd Edition ruleset.

From the AD&D 2E Player's Handbook: "A bard, by his nature, tends to learn many different skills. He is a jack-of-all-trades but master of none".

So he can use any weapon like a Fighter, but can't use them as well as a Fighter, nor use a shield and heavy armor, nor have the HPs. He can cast wizard spells like a Mage, but can't specialize in a school of magic, nor use Wizard magical items (though the BG games do allow wands). He can do thieving abilities, but only four of the eight, and no backstab.

So an AD&D 2E bard might not be your primary mage, and probably not so good as your primary fighter, and certainly not your primary thief, but maybe a decent Second to augment some or all of the above Primaries.

The BG games implement the AD&D 2E bard class with varying (and certainly subjective) degrees of success. If I were making BG, I would of tried implementing more magical instruments (with various effects) to give bards more pedigree, perhaps make a few instruments that are a "weapon proficiency" (perhaps automatic with the bard class), that stretch the AD&D 2E rules a little, but keep the spirit of the class. Or expand the singing ability a little, like Icewind Dale did.

I grew up with AD&D 2E, so BG bards feel somewhat right to me (a "party-oriented" character meant to augment 2-3 other characters). But if your "bard background" is different from other games or whatnot, I could see how see how BG bards might not feel as "correct".

They didn't quite completely prevent Imoen from dying, at least in the classic edition.

You can, for example, use the Contagion spell (which is one of the spells that nobody bothers with) to permanently lower er Strength (at least until Cure Disease is cast), and if you keep casting it, you can lower the stat to 0, at which point she will die. However, once you leave Irenicus's Dungeon, she will still leave the party and be alive in the cutscene, and she will be alive when you see her later.

(Note that using this method, or the Mindflayer Shapechange method, to kill certain NPCs could make the game unwinnable.)

The 2e Bard lacks healing magic, and therefore would not qualify as a jack-of-all-trades to me. (I consider healing magic to be important enough that a character who doesn't have it is missing that role, and therefore is not a jack of that particular trade.) The way I see it, the use of music should be the Bard's focus, and that should make them a specialist rather than a generalist.

Also, there's multi-classes for those generalist set-ups.

(Worth noting that, to my knowledge, the 2e Bard may be the *only* (A)D&D version to lack healing (unless they lack healing in 4e or 5e).)

Heh, I did not know that! I gotta see this. Next time I install the game, Imoen is toast lol! Yeah, the 2E bard can do some Rogue, Warrior, and Wizard, but no Priest. I suppose he's really more of a "jack-of-alotta-trades" lol.

I'm not sure about first edition AD&D bards, I was always just a 2E guy. But you got me bard-curious. I have all the 1E and 2E books in pdf file format (and I do mean everything lol, I got anything that was ever printed for D&D and AD&D from the 1970's, 1980's, and 1990's). Perhaps one of these days I'll go through my pdf collection and lookup 1E bards.

Having a magic school for music for a bard is an interesting idea. Not too un-similar to wizard schools or priest spheres (like how druids do the nature-related spheres of divine magic). Bards could have songs and instruments that rival wizards' spells and wands. (At least, more so than what's in BG.)

And it's relevant that you mentioned multi-classes. If I was a power-gamer, then there's no way I'm taking a bard over a multi-class character. But if I'm looking for a character with a unique feel, then I dig the bard.

The end result is certainly always the same: get all enemies with a red circle to zero HP. But it's the flavor and playstyle that makes it unique and fun.

I've always thought that Diablo 2, in a kinda way, is a genius game. The seven different classes in D2 all have different playstyles which make them feel completely different from each other. Indeed different builds of the same class often feel like completely different characters.

And then there's the heated arguments (sometime waaay too heated lol) over which D2 class/build is "the best". Whirlwind Barbarian or Frenzy Barbarian? Fire Sorceress or Cold Sorceress? Amazon Valkyrie or Necromancer Golem? And so on, and so on. Very deep for an "mindless action" game, imho.

And then there's BG. Bard who uses crossbows spells and wands, or bard who just sings? Bard or multi-class character? Full party of six, smaller party of 2-3, or solo? And so on, and so on.

The beauty is that it all works, so pick your preference and enjoy. Perhaps BG is a genius game too!

1) Well, obviously I ment no mods, as those are not "the" game.

2) thx, but no Icewind Dale for me. Too technical, only focuses on the battle, and it relies too much on casting web and hit&run backstabbing for me. I played it once (just the core game, no expansion even), was fun, tried a second time and the goblins in the starting village wiped my party, and I had no idea how to heal,, so I uninned the game and never looked back.

3) for Aerie I played her like once, maybe twice for the baby in ToB, but she lagging behind 10 leevels to an all-six party just annoyed me to no end.

4) I've played bard. Blade is ok prot. Pure bard is a hardcore solo challange, that play really shows it is the weakest of all classes. But making the prot a pure support character, because no Skald-NPC is anywhere, while they keep inserting even more useless basic bard is really a troll move. What you want, use the original edition, make 5 skalds, and stack the singing? So annoying.

+1) I HATE Diablo 2 for various rasons. Please cut that topic here.