I've been playing as a Half-Elf Fighter/Mage in my first complete BG 1 to ToB playthrough. It's great fun and I still got some way to go, but I'm already thinking ahead for a second run.

I know Kensai --> Mage is one of the strongest endgame builds out there, but I got a few questions:

1) At what level do you start dual-classing?

2) Will it feel almost identical to Fighter/Mage?

1). If you are dual classing (as opposed to multi) then do it at level 4 in BG1 and level 8 in BG2. That way you will be able to still reach the max level with your mage in BG1 and the max level in ToB without penalty. And remember that you can only dual class if your character is Human.

2). No. You will not be able to use ANY armour (including Elven Chain), though you can still wear robes -- think Vecna in BG2. You will be relying heavily on self buffs, and this along with Kai will make you a destruction machine unlike a normal F/M. And specialise in two-weapon and Katanas for the Dak'kon's Zerth blade (off-hand, extra spell slots) from the Adventurer's Mart.

Alright thanks.

I plan to use a single character from BG 1 to ToB... so I will probably play entirely as a Kensai in BG 1, and dual-class to Mage at the start of BG 2 then. I think I should be lv 8 if I finish the TotSC content right?

If playing with the level cap, then yes, you can get a Fighter [or kit] to 8th level in BG1/TotSC. Doing so requires 125,000 xp, and the level cap is 161,000 xp.

I have to disagree with Hickory. The best time to dualclass the Kensai>Mage is either at level 9 or 13. Level nine to get the most out of the HP boost, and an extra weapon profiency, or level 13 to get the extra half attack per round from being a warrior, as well as additional combat bonuses from the Kensai kit. Kensai13>mage 28 is considered the best by most powergamers.

Also dualclassing at level 8 won't get you any more spells than a kensai 13>mage. However you will be more fragile and less deadly in closecombat. It's your choice.

Leveling from mage 28-31 only Awards you with a measly 3 HP(no extra mage spells) compared to 5 extra levels of Kensai which gives: one extra weapon profiency, +2 to thac0 and damage, an extra half attack and 16 extra HP!


While the Kensai/Mage is the better class late SoA, a multiclass completely destroys any dualclass char in ToB, since a dualclass reach their peak just at the end SoA/beginning of ToB and really stop advancing, where as multiclasses gain huge boosts each level up.

I agree with you - I'd always wait for *at least* 9th level, for the reasons you suggest. Passing up an extra d10 *and* Con bonuses worth of hit points, for no appreciable gain, doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, IMHO.

When the intent is to take the character into BG2/ToB, as is the case here, what is the advantage to dual classing at 8th, in BG1, rather than waiting until BG2 to do so at 9th? You only need 89,000 further xp to get a Fighter Kit to 9th level, right? Given the xp awards in BG2, that can be accomplished relatively quickly, and you will *still* be playing much of the game as a Mage anyway, until you get back your Kensai abilities....

Everybody has their own opinion, and I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying, but my point was that at the levels I stated your mage would be able to progress to maximum level.

BG1 (TotSC) XP cap 161,000
===========================
Pure Fighter max level 8 == 125,000
Pure Mage max level 9 == 135,000

Fighter 4 (8,000) / Mage 9 (135,000) == 143,000
MAXIMUM MAGE LEVEL


BG2 & ToB XP cap 8,000,000
===========================
Pure Fighter max level 40 == 8,000,000
Pure Mage max level 31 == 7,875,000

Fighter 8 (125,000) / Mage 31 (7,875,000) == 8,000,000
MAXIMUM MAGE LEVEL

I am not a power gamer, and therefore don't think like one.

Hmmm thanks for all your input guys.

I've also seen lv 9 and lv 13 been mentioned before as good times to dual-class a Kensai actually, although I don't understand the metagame well enough to understand why until now. (I think)

I am also not a powergamer, and I thought the cool thing about starting the transition just after BG 2 begins is that I can imagine it representing Charname being greatly physically weakened as a result of Irenicus' torture, but also somehow unleashed the magical potential within, which he finally begins to utilise and learn. It's a shame he cannot reach lv9 in BG EE.

Kensai in BG1 (I guess you're using the BG2 engine) is very weak, at low level you get the full restrictions (no armor, bows, ...) but barely any benefits.

That's an excellent "role playing" rationale for making the choice you are contemplating. And for a non-power gamer, it's as good a reason as any to do what *you* want to do with your character. :)

Just so I am clear... if I begin the dual-classing at lv 8 instead of lv 9, in the long run, all I lose is a few hp pts and 1 proficiency point?

If so I think I can live with that to satisfy my RP purposes.

I'm the guy who 'cheated' to reduce Charname's Constitution at the start of BG 2 to remove the benefit of the Tome in BG 1 (17 to 16), to represent his suffering at the hands of Irenicus, and then chose to lose another point of Constitution in the dream sequence in Spellhold. Now all the way in the Underdark, he still has less hp than at the end of BG 1. lol

I must make powergamers cry in frustration :D

You will also lose a 1 point drop in THAC0 and a 2 point decrease in saving throws. The loss in saving throws will be mitigated somewhat when you 'catch up' and regain the fighter abilities, and your saving throws vs. spells and wands will be superior in your mage class anyway.

As Kensai/Mage you also get additional +1 to hit and damage on top of the fighter bonuses for dualing at level 9 instead of 8.

This thread makes me want to dual class my mage into Kensai but he has about 19,000 xp points into level 5. Are those lost on dual classing?

Yes any excess xp is lost.

Also it's usually a better idea to Kensai --> Mage than the other way around. Because Fighters get more benefits at lower levels (hp gain for one) and Mages really shine at higher levels. (Once you Dual Class, you never improve on your original class, so your character will stuck being a lv 5 Mage)