Why does TofSc list fifth tier spells in table 5b of the manual, when table 3c indicates that level nine (where fifth tier spells arrive) is well above the games level cap of 161,000 XP points (level nine is 225,000)?

cheers

Good question. ;)

The level table is right, though. Clerics can't reach lvl9 in BG1/TOSC...

Probably because fifth-level cleric spells are in the game (Flamestrike, Raise Dead, Cure Critical Wounds); you simply don't reach a high enough level to learn them yourself. You can cast all three of those spells from scrolls, and I might be forgetting a few.

Edit: Stupid board, not recognizing the italics code...

seems strange that they would go to the trouble of increasing the level cap for TotSc and still leave you just out of reach of level five spells.

is this really the way it is?

I am not sure how Bioware arrived at the 161,000 XP limit for TotSC. It seems pretty arbitrary, unless they just REALLY wanted to let thieves get to level 10 :P (160,000 XP req.). It isn't even double what the base game cap was, since that cap was 89,000 XP, iirc.

Regardless, as Shadowsetzer wrote, those spells ARE in the game, however they can only be used from scrolls. Just because a spell can't be cast from your spell-list doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the manual. There are tons of level 5 spells, cleric and mage both, scattered around the game-world. Lastly, maybe when they planned the manual, they hadn't firmly decided on the balance for the game yet (highly probable), so they wanted to leave themselves some wiggle room for setting the XP cap.

All in all, I think too much information is a manual is highly preferable to too little. ;)

EDIT:
Totally forgot about druids when i posted this. Druids also use many cleric spells, and they can make it to level 10 in TotSC (125,000 XP req.). However, they couldn't get 5th level spells in the vanilla Baldur's Gate, since that would require 90,000 XP (for level 9). This is quite possibly why the XP cap for the non-expansion game experience cap was set at 89,000 XP: so they could keep druids and clerics more balanced. Honestly, though, getting level 5 clerical spells would be about the only reason I would play a plain druid (one without a kit or multi-class) in the vanilla BG...

cheers.

i thought only mages could cast from scrolls, which begs the questions as to why priests get 5th level spells...........?

would be a bit odd that druids can cast 5th level but not clerics!

separate question, if one dual classes as a fighter-druid, can the druid use swords and heavy armour without affecting his druidy abilities?

seems like a cheap way to get 5th level spell-casting and the extra half attack at level 7 fighter!

To the above poster (because I'm not quoting that whole thing), priests can cast spells from scrolls just fine. It's why temples sell scrolls of Raise Dead.

Also, with dual or multi-class priests, they can wear up to the heaviest armor their classes allow, but their weapons are restricted to the ones a pure cleric or druid could use. (Fighter/Druids get up to full plate from fighter but can only use druid weapons; cleric/thieves can wear up to full plate from cleric, but can only use a cleric's weapons.) Priest spells cast just fine regardless of what armor you're wearing. You think this is bad? Wait until you hit Baldur's Gate 2 and meet Kensai/Thieves.....

cheers, odd that Druids can get to 5th level castable spells and clerics can not however.......

You are talking about ToB HLAs, right? Where a thief gains the ability to wear any armor and wield any weapon without any class/alignment restrictions? So you can have a kensai/thief wearing... well... anything, thus removing the only class restriction to kensai that made them the least bit balanced? Yeah, that cheese is just so wrong it rocks. ;) Short answer:
Welcome to AD&D 2nd Edition.

Long answer:
Druids are just... different. In the table-top game, they actually had an easier time of it, in terms of required experience per level, than clerics. However, they hit a brick wall somewhere in the early teens levels (I think it was 12-14, but I no longer have those manuals to check), where they HAD to start challenging members of their druid circle to increase in level. This was a limit that pretty much required a Dungeon Master to create a mini-quest every time the druids wanted to level. Thus, it was a trade off: level up quickly, then be at the mercy of the DM in the almost-top-level game with a druids, or just play a cleric and know you aren't going to be hosed later on.

Yep, I think it was level 14 or 15 but can't remember either (I DO still have my AD&D 2nd ed player's handbook, but I'm at work so can't check it, will do when I get home). You had to fight the regional, then the country (I think) heads then the head continental region head and so on, until you became the head of all druids everywhere, at which point when you then leveled up again you then became a hierophant druid whereupon you would step down as grand supreme druid, pick your successor and then level up normally again without having to fight people. Nifty idea I thought, maybe not make it so bound to levels but having such a structure did give ideas.

On my info sheet which i got from a BG walkthru site it lists druid lvl 14 with 1.500.000 exp and then druid lvl 15 with 3.000.000 exp (but colored as not reachable in the BG games). The lvls 16+ aren't specified so i suppose you're right and from lvl 15 (or 14?) onwards you cannot lvlup normally...

14 is the level cap for druids in vanilla BG2; ToB speeds up their leveling quite a bit after they hit 15, though. A druid at the BG2 cap going into ToB will hit 15 VERY quickly.

Yeah and I remember that in SoA you had to be around that level to qualify for the Druid's stronghold, which was I suppose the first of the druid hierarchy. They kinda ignored it in ToB, since it was obviously too awkward what with the main storyline and what not.

I have now dug out my old AD&D 2nd ed PHB and blown the dust off it to look over what it says there. Apparently it actually started at level 12, there can only be 9 level 12 druids in one geographic region, and hold the rank of druid. You gain three underlings for successfully doing so. Then it's only three 13th level druids in the region, who hold the rank of archdruid, one level 14 'Great Druid' in a region, and finally one level 15 'Grand Druid', of which there can be only one in the entire world (if you have a party with two druids in then one of you is screwed I guess). Once you achieve level 16 you can step down once you find a successor and become a hierophant druid and no longer have to fight people to take their place when you level up. In the PHB apparently a druid doesn't gain more spells after level 15, instead gaining powers such as the ability to hibernate, or to be able to enter and survive elemental planes at will... Your xp also gets reset to 0 after level 16 as for some reason, leveling up from scratch though you are still a level 16+ druid. I guess I can understand them not putting that in the game. :D That also fits in with the xp chart in the PHB. For some reason it takes 3 million xp to get to level 15, and then 3.5 milliion to get to level 16 (total, including the xp needed to get to the previous levels), but after that it gets weird and is reset to zero but the druid stays at level 16, with each level after that only costing 500,000.

cheers guys