Reading all the comments, for many "grinding" seems to be the most negative aspect of Agarest.

What is "grinding"? The need to perform a high number of fights for no other reason than to get attributes high enough to be able to defeat the more powerful baddies? Is it the repetitiveness of the fights (someone talked about automated fighting)? The long playing time of 100+ hours (according to a number of comments)? That, leaving the fights aside, nothing interesting remains?

What would those who complain about grinding in Agarest do differently? Reduce the number of fights, make them more interesting or more challenging? Reduce total playing time? Balance fighting with more non-fighting content? Change the leveling-up system?

I'm asking because grinding as such is not unusual for RPG's, sometimes even viewed as a motivating aspect, just like long playing times. So there must be something specific to the grinding in Agarest, and I would like to understand it.

I have played this game long time ago on the ps 3 and i can say that when a game is grind heavy it means the diffeculty spike raise usely if you continue the story to quickly. If you dont repeat areas you die quickly if you continue the story to quickly. Most rpgs you need to grind but you can progress and mostly with rpg is mostly at the end of the game you need to grind a lot this game you need to grind a lot at the start.

Grinding considering a good aspect in rpg? I think you meant Japanese rpg. Because for west rpg, grinding is considered a bad thing. Wich is why I have difficulties to find a Jrpg to enjoy when I feel like buying one. In West rpg like baldur's Gate you can easily level up as you go with the story and never in this game I felt like gaining a level would be the only way to continue.

I have a hard time to put myself in the skin of someone who like grinding. Killing a one thousand times the same weak enemy in the same area for hours just so you can have level up enough to finally have a chance to not be one shot by a boss? What about the game designer put more effort in his game and balance his battle so I don't need to do that? There is a difference between rushing trough the game and just wanting to not do boring busy work.

Does Agarest is painful like that? Because if it's the case I will just ignore it and go back to Jrpg who do not try to waste my time.

Thanks for your useful comments guys. I think it really comes down to what you mean by grinding. There are different aspects and different opinions - some of them presented in this wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_%28video_gaming%29.

I myself agree that running around searching monsters for the sole purpose of getting a few experience points is rather pointless, especially when the fights are many, repetitive and not really challenging. Worst case is when grinding is purposefully introduced to "motivate" players to buy extra stuff for real money just to shorten grinding time (which is not the case for the PC version of Agarest).
On the other hand, I find it legitimate to use monster strength as a tool to structure access to certain regions of the game map, i.e. that players need a certain strength, certain skills to access certain regions.

Well, you have given me a good idea of what grinding in Agarest means for you - thanks again!

The GOG and Steam versions have a few DLC packages included that can help reduce the grind a little (some item packs and one of the points packs) along with five bonus dungeons. These (along with several others) were freebies with the PS3 version. I usually turn them off (excepting the bonus dungeons) as I didn't find the game too grind-heavy without them and quite unbalanced with them. But then, I'm used to games like the Disgaea series, which I swear is the Japanese word for grinding, heh.

Flynn

I think it has something to do with "Eastern" vs "Western" mindset (and I rather have Eastern mindset).

People with Eastern mindset like more methodical approach to the games, taking their time with them, perfecting characters, relaxing after work by getting another lv in the game, testing their new swords in lower level areas, etc.

People with Western mindset prefer limits - no respawns, low level cap, story over gameplay ,etc.

I look at these DLC as just a cheat to avoid what makes these games interesting in first place (well, for people with Eastern mindset).

Personally I am not fond of games like Baldur's Gate for limits everywhere, but then I just look at it as game for Western mindset. I wish people wouldn't be so much criticizing Eastern mindset, they have like 90% of RPGs on PC which are made exactly with Western mindset in mind. Methodical ("grindy") RPGs are so few and far between on PC, it makes me upset when people bash them and give less reasons for publishers to release/localize this kind of games.

Now, to be fair, limits exist in Eastern RPGs. I mean, the Disgaea series tops out at level 9,999. =)

In all seriousness, Western RPGs started out pretty grindy as well. The first Wizardry trilogy defined grinding, aped by The Bard's Tale series and several other games of that era. I'm maybe a little rare then, as I have both mindsets. I like Baldur's Gate and the story in the game. I also like that I can take my character and import it into the second game and continue to grow into nearly god-like levels. But I also like games like Wizardry where you have to methodically raise your character's stats in order to just survive past the first door of the dungeon, much less the first level.

For me, Disgaea is a great blend of over the top grind and a great story. Doesn't hurt that the strategy battle system is also intense and a great amount of fun to figure out and exploit. I really wish there were a native PC port for that series.

Flynn

You forgot about transmigrations (reincarnations) :) Majority of Western players would find Wizardry gameplay highly unappealing now, but there a re a lot of such games in the East. Elminage Gothic is an example to that. When i speak western/eastern I don't mean it strictly geographically. Tbh, there is little grind in Disgaea (at least first game, as 2nd involved hunting pirates and i didn't play 3+) when you understand how mechanics work. You can merge enemies to get exp bombs, there were infamous tricks with Nekomatas and what not. Story is there rather for the hilarity:

"At long last, the nefarious angel Flonne seems to have forsaken her evil ways. But, can an old dog learn new tricks!?"

"Etna: This week's dish: Cajun style gumbo! And the ingredient - the Prinny Squad!!
Prinny Squad: Dood!? Us!?"

This game is just so... unusual in each of its aspects, it is really a great loss that we still don't have PC port for that series.

If you own all the steam version DLC, enable all the DLC and then save the game... that saved game can be loaded in the GOG version, and then you will be able to have all paid stuff within the no-DRM version (the best version?).

Then you won't need to grind at all.

Yeah, I had just recent picked up Elminage. Really reminds me of Class of Heroes and Unchained Blades. And Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls, heh. The Bard's Tale series was my first experience with Wizardry-style RPGs and I still haven't burned out on them so many years later. :) Getting through the story in any Disgaea game is only just the beginning, of course. There are, what, five games in the main series (Hour of Darkness, Cursed Memories, Absence of Justice, A Promise Unforgotten and D2: A Brighter Darkness). Looks like Disgaea 5 is out in Japan now and is coming to the US later this year (Alliance of Vengeance). That's going on my list.

I have a nearly complete collection of Disgaea titles, missing the DS port and the D3 and D4 remakes for the PS Vita, and the visual novel for the PSP. I really loved the remakes of D1 and D2 for the PSP as they added a ton of stuff in to the game. But I think my favorite overall is D3: Absence of Justice (Absence of Detention on the PSVita). Something about Mao and Raspberyl that is just so much fun. :)

Flynn