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RoadTheExile: Sir I'm sorry that you're a repressed closeted gay person, but that's no excuse to be a nazi. There's absolutely no noteworthy difference between someone who says "I hate gay people" and someone who says "i'm fine with gay people, I just hate people who advocate for them in society and think they should have rights". There always has been and probably always will be outrage merchants trying to scam dupes like yourself into believing that X group is going too far and trying to force it's way of life onto everyone else; just let me ask did whoever tell you that was happening say so from a youtube channel that primarily concerns itself what those evil SJWs are up to?
Yes, there's absolutely noteworthy difference between someone who says "I hate gay people" and someone who says "i'm fine with gay people, I just hate people who advocate for them in society and think they should have rights".
But you ARE gay rights' advocate, so, of course, you CANNOT agree.
So be it.

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RoadTheExile: Reactionary traditionalist who believes that Sweden is brainwashing kids to force them to be gay believes he undestands propaganda.
Yes. Exactly that.
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Yunipuma: Yes, there's absolutely noteworthy difference between someone who says "I hate gay people" and someone who says "i'm fine with gay people, I just hate people who advocate for them in society and think they should have rights".
To be fair, being against people who think that gays should have rights is not far from being against gays themselves.

Of course, if by "rights" you mean universal human rights, not exclusive rights for gays. The problem with modern left-wing activists is that they demand special rights and privileges for LGBT+- people. Being against gay and trans people having more rights than straight people is normal.
Post edited January 17, 2020 by LootHunter
Why do kids make dumb choices about gender? Because they don't have life experience. I'd say the same thing about joining the army or getting married, there are life altering decisions anyone can make that have the potential to shake out badly, to not be what you thought they would be, and which you regret. There's nothing special about being trans in that regard.

As for your little spiel calling me a bigot or whatever, that would only make sense if that was something all straight white men were effected by. You're grossly misusing the term bigoted there in an effort to pull off some childish word game (not working by the way) but whatever, I am "bigoted" against all forms of belief which give credence to harming people who are doing nothing to other people. I could rephrase this entire argument to call someone racist against white people for thinking it's natural to be scared of black people or something, but I'm not entirely sure you wouldn't say "and what's wrong with that?"
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RoadTheExile: Sir I'm sorry that you're a repressed closeted gay person, but that's no excuse to be a nazi. There's absolutely no noteworthy difference between someone who says "I hate gay people" and someone who says "i'm fine with gay people, I just hate people who advocate for them in society and think they should have rights". There always has been and probably always will be outrage merchants trying to scam dupes like yourself into believing that X group is going too far and trying to force it's way of life onto everyone else; just let me ask did whoever tell you that was happening say so from a youtube channel that primarily concerns itself what those evil SJWs are up to?
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Yunipuma: Yes, there's absolutely noteworthy difference between someone who says "I hate gay people" and someone who says "i'm fine with gay people, I just hate people who advocate for them in society and think they should have rights".
But you ARE gay rights' advocate, so, of course, you CANNOT agree.
So be it.

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RoadTheExile: Reactionary traditionalist who believes that Sweden is brainwashing kids to force them to be gay believes he undestands propaganda.
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Yunipuma: Yes. Exactly that.
Yeah because nobody except dipshit reactionaries who go around looking for excuses to get freaked out about gay people find any real reasons to have an issue with gay rights advocacy. The only people who say things like this are people who unflinchingly believe any random rumor that falls into their lap, and that betrays that despite your claims you do have some problem with gay people.

Perhaps an accurate way to phrase your beliefs would be "I don't think gay people should be executed on sight by roving death squads, so therefore you can't say I'm being a bigot"
Post edited January 17, 2020 by RoadTheExile
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RoadTheExile: Why do kids make dumb choices about gender? Because they don't have life experience. I'd say the same thing about joining the army or getting married
And? You're still dodging the question - why do kids even have an idea that they are different gender? And yes - the answer is indeed the same as to "why children/teens have idea to get married or join the army".

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RoadTheExile: As for your little spiel calling me a bigot or whatever, that would only make sense if that was something all straight white men were effected by.
No.

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RoadTheExile: I am "bigoted" against all forms of belief which give credence to harming people who are doing nothing to other people. I could rephrase this entire argument to call someone racist against white people for thinking it's natural to be scared of black people or something, but I'm not entirely sure you wouldn't say "and what's wrong with that?"
That makes no sense. Did you mean that being scared of white people is racism against white people?
Post edited January 17, 2020 by LootHunter
O my god you guys. Still not enough foreplay?
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LootHunter: [
Actually, you ARE saying. Every time you use the word "homophobia", which implies that a man who is disgusted by the prospect of sucking another man's dick (or any other homosexual activity), is not normal and simply has irrational "-phobia".

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RoadTheExile: T
Perhaps their opposites should call them heterophobes.
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alcaray: O my god you guys. Still not enough foreplay?
Nope! :)
Post edited January 18, 2020 by lordhoff
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lordhoff: Perhaps their opposites should call them heterophobes.
The thing is most modern feminists ARE heterophobes. Considering how they berate any woman (real or imagined character) for wanting to find a man and start family.
Post edited January 18, 2020 by LootHunter
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RoadTheExile: Yeah because nobody except dipshit reactionaries who go around looking for excuses to get freaked out about gay people find any real reasons to have an issue with gay rights advocacy. The only people who say things like this are people who unflinchingly believe any random rumor that falls into their lap, and that betrays that despite your claims you do have some problem with gay people.
How interesting. Riddle me this: when people call you names, you are all the rightheous anger, but when you call people names, they must just shut the fuck up and listen.
Well, that's the reason I HATE SJWs.

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RoadTheExile: Perhaps an accurate way to phrase your beliefs would be "I don't think gay people should be executed on sight by roving death squads, so therefore you can't say I'm being a bigot"
No. The accurate way to phrase my beliefs would be "I don't have anything against gay people who live their own lives and don't demand anything of me, so therefore you can't say I'm being a bigot"

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RoadTheExile: Why do kids make dumb choices about gender? Because they don't have life experience. I'd say the same thing about joining the army or getting married, there are life altering decisions anyone can make that have the potential to shake out badly, to not be what you thought they would be, and which you regret. There's nothing special about being trans in that regard.
Lol that - you are talking to 49-year-old male who served his full time in Army.
Post edited January 18, 2020 by Yunipuma
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RoadTheExile: Yeah because nobody except dipshit reactionaries who go around looking for excuses to get freaked out about gay people find any real reasons to have an issue with gay rights advocacy. The only people who say things like this are people who unflinchingly believe any random rumor that falls into their lap, and that betrays that despite your claims you do have some problem with gay people.
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Yunipuma: How interesting. Riddle me this: when people call you names, you are all the rightheous anger, but when you call people names, they must just shut the fuck up and listen.
Well, that's the reason I HATE SJWs.
first of all it's not anger, it's snide mockery.

The reason why other people shut the fuck up and listen is because I am right. When you say that kids are being brainwashed to be gay in Sweden or something how things will go is I'll ask you to provide proof, you'll link me to some story, and I'll read it and find to no surprise theres not some buttsex class for 1st graders or something but instead there's some new batch of books that include PG gay relationships or IDK some kind of milquetoast thing involving pronouns. Then you'll say "yeah that's evil, kids shouldn't be exposed to that" or something, and ultimately the argument will all boil down to the fact that you are stupid and afraid of things you don't understand.

I'm only defending the position of leave people be to do their own thing as long as they're not hurting anyone, which is universally preferable.

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RoadTheExile: Perhaps an accurate way to phrase your beliefs would be "I don't think gay people should be executed on sight by roving death squads, so therefore you can't say I'm being a bigot"
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Yunipuma: No. The accurate way to phrase my beliefs would be "I don't have anything against gay people who live their own lives and don't demand anything of me, so therefore you can't say I'm being a bigot"
okay but nobody is demanding anything of you and yet you still find reasons to complain so that clearly cannot be the case. Did someone knock on your door and say "hey you've got 20 minutes to put on this dress and wig and be down to the library to start reading to some kids"? I'm guessing no.

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RoadTheExile: Why do kids make dumb choices about gender? Because they don't have life experience. I'd say the same thing about joining the army or getting married, there are life altering decisions anyone can make that have the potential to shake out badly, to not be what you thought they would be, and which you regret. There's nothing special about being trans in that regard.
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Yunipuma: Lol that - you are talking to 49-year-old male who served his full time in Army.
If you're Russian and served when you were 18 you would have enlisted around late 80s early 90s when the Soviet Union had conscription.. so that's not the same thing as signing up for the military as a volunteer. Either way I don't see what that has to do with anything other than just telling me you're an old man which fits in pretty nicely with the afraid-of-change thing I was talking about earlier.
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Yunipuma: How interesting. Riddle me this: when people call you names, you are all the rightheous anger, but when you call people names, they must just shut the fuck up and listen.
Well, that's the reason I HATE SJWs.
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RoadTheExile: first of all it's not anger, it's snide mockery.

The reason why other people shut the fuck up and listen is because I am right. When you say that kids are being brainwashed to be gay in Sweden or something how things will go is I'll ask you to provide proof, you'll link me to some story, and I'll read it and find to no surprise theres not some buttsex class for 1st graders or something but instead there's some new batch of books that include PG gay relationships or IDK some kind of milquetoast thing involving pronouns. Then you'll say "yeah that's evil, kids shouldn't be exposed to that" or something, and ultimately the argument will all boil down to the fact that you are stupid and afraid of things you don't understand.

I'm only defending the position of leave people be to do their own thing as long as they're not hurting anyone, which is universally preferable.

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Yunipuma: No. The accurate way to phrase my beliefs would be "I don't have anything against gay people who live their own lives and don't demand anything of me, so therefore you can't say I'm being a bigot"
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RoadTheExile: okay but nobody is demanding anything of you and yet you still find reasons to complain so that clearly cannot be the case. Did someone knock on your door and say "hey you've got 20 minutes to put on this dress and wig and be down to the library to start reading to some kids"? I'm guessing no.

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Yunipuma: Lol that - you are talking to 49-year-old male who served his full time in Army.
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RoadTheExile: If you're Russian and served when you were 18 you would have enlisted around late 80s early 90s when the Soviet Union had conscription.. so that's not the same thing as signing up for the military as a volunteer. Either way I don't see what that has to do with anything other than just telling me you're an old man which fits in pretty nicely with the afraid-of-change thing I was talking about earlier.
Developers catering to psychotic people like you are why the whole industry is going to shit.
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RoadTheExile: first of all it's not anger, it's snide mockery.

The reason why other people shut the fuck up and listen is because I am right. When you say that kids are being brainwashed to be gay in Sweden or something how things will go is I'll ask you to provide proof, you'll link me to some story, and I'll read it and find to no surprise theres not some buttsex class for 1st graders or something but instead there's some new batch of books that include PG gay relationships or IDK some kind of milquetoast thing involving pronouns. Then you'll say "yeah that's evil, kids shouldn't be exposed to that" or something, and ultimately the argument will all boil down to the fact that you are stupid and afraid of things you don't understand.

I'm only defending the position of leave people be to do their own thing as long as they're not hurting anyone, which is universally preferable.

okay but nobody is demanding anything of you and yet you still find reasons to complain so that clearly cannot be the case. Did someone knock on your door and say "hey you've got 20 minutes to put on this dress and wig and be down to the library to start reading to some kids"? I'm guessing no.

If you're Russian and served when you were 18 you would have enlisted around late 80s early 90s when the Soviet Union had conscription.. so that's not the same thing as signing up for the military as a volunteer. Either way I don't see what that has to do with anything other than just telling me you're an old man which fits in pretty nicely with the afraid-of-change thing I was talking about earlier.
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Heartstopper: Developers catering to psychotic people like you are why the whole industry is going to shit.
Awesome, I hope gaming dies forever and is replaced with a far superior form of entertainment like political slam poetry
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Heartstopper: Developers catering to psychotic people like you are why the whole industry is going to shit.
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RoadTheExile: Awesome, I hope gaming dies forever and is replaced with a far superior form of entertainment like political slam poetry
So you're just a troll then. Best of luck accomplishing anything meaningful in life.
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LootHunter: Want data? Here is some:

okay so first of all 25 people is a really small sample size, but I'm familiar with this vaguely so I won't twist your arm too hard on that. What I will twist your arm on is that this is specifically looking at people in their adolescence (ages 10-13) and from what I've heard people early on life have a high drop out rate, for lack of a better term, from their gender identity issues however post puberty most people who still report issues don't stop feeling that way.

There is something of a conundrum of what to do with that however, pre-pubsecent changes to a trans person's hormones is worth it's weight in gold compared to post pubescent changes, and in fact many people who go on hormone blockers before around 16 can quite easily pass which probably does a lot with gender dysphoria issues; of course the flip side is that many people can also make dumb choices as kids. One way or another people get hurt.

That all being said I don't see how that contradicts anything I've said or backs up anything I find disagreeable that you've said.
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RoadTheExile:
Well I think the point others here are making, and which you seem to either be completely missing or choosing to ignore so you can go into hardcore activist mode (you don't agree with me therefore you're all nazis! Reeeee!) - is that most people have no problems with gays/trans/etc., but now that these people have fought for their rights - and won (at least in most countries in the West) - they seem to be taking things too far.

What's too far? What you described highlights one of the issues: kids make dumb decisions. You know what society tends to do, to help kids not make dumb decisions? Restrict legal rights until you're old enough (generally 18 in most countries). It's obvious kids are going to make dumb decisions - they lack the maturity and experience. On top of that, going through puberty can mess with your brain as well as your body, so it would be incredibly irresponsible to allow someone who is 13 or 15 or 16 years old to make a decision to change their gender of birth when this is irreversible, and can potentially lead to regret (or worse, e.g. suicide).

Speaking scientifically, if you want to be something that you're not physically, then you generally have some kind of mental disorder. While I personally would rather opt to change my body rather than my mind (so can understand trans people in that way), that kind of thing should be left up to someone when they're old enough to make an informed decision.

The question "what do we do about children that want to change their gender?" should be pretty obvious: absolutely nothing. Wait till they're older, by which stage some of them may have changed their mind. If they didn't, then they can go through with gender change stuff after they're old enough. Advocating for gender changes prior to adult-hood is irresponsible (with the very rare exception of cases where a child is born with multiple genders or something along those lines).

Now you'll probably focus on the "mental disorder" part and somehow label me as being anti-LGBT person because of it; however note that: 1) I have explicitly stated I have no problems with trans/etc. people, and 2) doing so will irreversibly prove the other points that are being made against you here (i.e. that you're a hardcore reactionary activist resorting to calling people nazis at every opportunity who has no problem with children making irreversible life-altering decisions that they may likely regret to the point of wanting to kill themselves).

The veracity of some of what I'm saying is borne out by that 30-year comprehensive study I posted earlier.
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Heartstopper: Developers catering to psychotic people like you are why the whole industry is going to shit.
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RoadTheExile: Awesome, I hope gaming dies forever and is replaced with a far superior form of entertainment like political slam poetry
#TheMaskSlips
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Well that's a fair way to phrase things, but at least from my own personal experiences having gone from reactionary to I guess SJW, it never ever seems to me like these critiques are made in good faith. Like for example we'll make a big deal out of gay acceptance going too far and pushing someone to commit suicide and that'll be proof that things are going too far, but then if we look at the suicide of gay people suddenly then everyone is ultra skeptical if it's as a result from culture or if it's just their lot in life or whatever; you'll especially notice how we easily transition to a very sterile and emotionless conversation when just before when we're speaking in defense of the poor oppressed white straight male everyone is all about emotions.

It all makes it very difficult for me to take these issues seriously when my underlying suspicion is that everyone is just saying what they need to say to win the culture war. All I preach is that we leave people alone and leave the decision on how to handle LGBTQ people to the experts; i'm certainly not a PhD in gender psychology or whatever. But when we look at specific cases I never see something like some mom buying estrogen and blockers over the counter and just pouring them down her kid's throat because they wore a fairy costume and was happy when they were two or something. I don't know what else to tell people but to let a doctor handle it, but seems like many don't accept the opinion of medical science over their preexisting beliefs.

To give a brief little point though, for trans people waiting until you're 18 does have permanent effects however, for a lot of people their ability to reconcile the disparity in gender and preferred gender relies very heavily on passing and taking hormones before 16 can make a great difference in someone's presentation as compared to 18. I don't think it's so cut and dry as we just always wait until 18; maybe for certain individuals that's what we do, for others earlier transition is better? Leave it to the doctors to figure out. We shouldn't make politics out of what rightly belongs solely to the experts.