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MaximumBunny: My understanding of it is that it allows cross-compatibility between Windows devices without the need to recode something for each individual device (desktop/console/mobile/other). That on its own seems like a positive, right?
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Wishbone: That depends how you look at it. Generally, it seems like a sure-fire way of making shitloads of useless apps. We're already seeing lots of straight PC "ports" of mobile games, where little to no effort has been expended to adapt the touchscreen interface or GUI size to the PC reality. If devs didn't even have to recompile the damned things, I expect this would only get worse.

The thing is, desktops, consoles, mobiles and tablets are not the same, and an app that is well suited for one is not necessarily well suited for another.

Now imagine one huge unified app store with a bazillion apps which work on any platform, but which were each designed with a specific one in mind, only you don't know which one that is. I'd say that is bad news for customers.
Agree with this. Most of what is on the Win10 Store is Tablet/Phone time wasting fluff.

If Microsoft are serious about UWP for gaming they need a separate store.
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Wishbone: That depends how you look at it. Generally, it seems like a sure-fire way of making shitloads of useless apps. We're already seeing lots of straight PC "ports" of mobile games, where little to no effort has been expended to adapt the touchscreen interface or GUI size to the PC reality. If devs didn't even have to recompile the damned things, I expect this would only get worse.

The thing is, desktops, consoles, mobiles and tablets are not the same, and an app that is well suited for one is not necessarily well suited for another.

Now imagine one huge unified app store with a bazillion apps which work on any platform, but which were each designed with a specific one in mind, only you don't know which one that is. I'd say that is bad news for customers.
And that way of making apps is designed to make them work well on desktops, tablets, consoles, phones, etc. But that is probably further missing the point. The point is that you can edit the same Word document using the same Microsoft Word app, whether you're on your phone, tablet, console or desktop. The point is that the game you play is the same complete with the progress, again, phone tablet console desktop. This has been the point of Universal Apps. While the aforementioned devices might not be one, their systems can be one, and if you share all kinds of input methods among them all, it has succeeded as a Universal App.

Now straight ports of Android games, without any proper adaption of the keyboard+mouse or whatever issues I just keep hearing about, that's the developers' problem, not Microsoft's.
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PookaMustard: Now straight ports of Android games, without any proper adaption of the keyboard+mouse or whatever issues I just keep hearing about, that's the developers' problem, not Microsoft's.
But it is a Win10 Store problem.

Having the same store for phone/tablet/pc/xbox with out a proper way to filter on a "App"'s preferred platform is Microsoft's fault.
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JMich: Stricter developing requirements. So for example, instead of using the CPU's frequency for timing, assuming it will always be between 180 and 240MHz, use a proper timing method that will cause 1 second to always be 1 second. Or assume that more than one user uses the same computer, and they don't want access to each other's saves.
Who uses the CPU#s frequency for timing?
My opinion: The PC games market doesn't need any fixing or revolutionary improvement. It is quite good as it is and should continue to be so. Any major change is likely for the worse.

One big advantage of the PC plattform was always that it was very open (also a disadvantage at the same time but IMHO the advantage predominates). Of course further standardization is nice and more standard libraries are nice, but they are typically much better performing when they are open and developed by more than one company. Of course Microsoft is a big player and one can trust them usually to do a good (relatively bug free) thing.

In the end what is surely problematic is cross-platform development. Apps that run on Linux, Mac, Windows. How are they supposed to use universal windows apps?
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Trilarion: Who uses the CPU#s frequency for timing?
Interstate '76?
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PookaMustard: Now straight ports of Android games, without any proper adaption of the keyboard+mouse or whatever issues I just keep hearing about, that's the developers' problem, not Microsoft's.
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mechmouse: But it is a Win10 Store problem.

Having the same store for phone/tablet/pc/xbox with out a proper way to filter on a "App"'s preferred platform is Microsoft's fault.
Not that either Google or Apple do this differentiation either; which both are the inspiration behind the Windows Store. That and you're missing the point I made initially. Straight port of Android apps without any proper adaption of the input methods used on the common PC device is the developer's problems, not Microsoft's. I didn't mention the store itself as a concern, as far as I'm aware.
I can see what kind of can of worms this proposal will open. DO NOT WANT.

What Microsoft considers as an "Universal App" might not bode well for us PC gamers.
Because if that happens the games will have to be coded and designed using the lowest common denominator.
This translates to smathphones and tablets, and to some extent, consoles.
They have no proper input device to speak of, and their hardware performance is abysmal compared to a dedicated PC system (consoles a little less so but I still digress).

This will lead into games to being designed to be "touch screen friendly" (tap screen to make the dude/car go-style games). Needless to say this control method does not translate well to any game more complex than fappybird.

I guess my fear would be that we lose the one thing what made PC gaming so great, which to me is engaging gameplay, tight controls, complex but still logical game mechanics, challenging but still fair games and writing that gets us invested in the game.

And last, but definitely not least...

Imagine a colossal tidal wave terrible games that are just copies of each other drowning out all the innovative and fun games. Think Apple and Google Store. Or Steam Greenlight. I have seen the end. No-one was spared. Not even the children...

I don't want PC gaming to die. :(

Would you want to buy more gems to skip waiting? Only €3.99 for 5!
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Trilarion: Who uses the CPU#s frequency for timing?
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JMich: Interstate '76?
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/deadly_sins_of_good_old_games/page1

Caused your game to run at lightning speed. If memory serves an old version of Tiberian Sun is like that when we use pentium 1 the units move ever so slowly. When we reach pentium 3, the units move so fast that you hardly have time to click on the enemy and have to resort to attack move.

I guess an FPS game which does that will be unplayable because you will be dead before you have time to react.
Post edited March 08, 2016 by Gnostic
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SoanoS: Needless to say this control method does not translate well to any game more complex than fappybird.
Nice to know that and [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IZmVLX2toU]Civilization 5 are less complex than fappybird (sic). That means we can now start asking GOG for fappybird (sic), since they already have Carmageddon here.
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PookaMustard: And that way of making apps is designed to make them work well on desktops, tablets, consoles, phones, etc.
No, it is designed to make them run on desktops, tablets, consoles, phones, etc. "Work well" is an entirely different matter, and UWP does not guarantee it.
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PookaMustard: The point is that you can edit the same Word document using the same Microsoft Word app, whether you're on your phone, tablet, console or desktop.
What a horrible example. If I need to edit a file on different platforms, I would very much like to use an app explicitly designed for the platform I'm currently on, not one designed for a different one that just happens to run on all of them. As an end user, why would I care whether the app I'm using on a given platform runs off the same executable as on another?
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PookaMustard: The point is that the game you play is the same complete with the progress, again, phone tablet console desktop. This has been the point of Universal Apps. While the aforementioned devices might not be one, their systems can be one, and if you share all kinds of input methods among them all, it has succeeded as a Universal App.
You can already have all of this without UWP. You are saying that UWP will make things easier for developers from a purely technical perspective. This is true. I am saying it will not automatically make things better for end users, and will make it easier to make it worse for them. This is also true.
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PookaMustard: Now straight ports of Android games, without any proper adaption of the keyboard+mouse or whatever issues I just keep hearing about, that's the developers' problem, not Microsoft's.
As is everything else you've mentioned.
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Wishbone: No, it is designed to make them run on desktops, tablets, consoles, phones, etc. "Work well" is an entirely different matter, and UWP does not guarantee it.
They guarantee that your app works well on all of these by adding code to your app to scale it and change it's face depending on screen size, input method, etc. It's all stated in their docs on how it works.

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Wishbone: As an end user, why would I care whether the app I'm using on a given platform runs off the same executable as on another?
Many reasons. Maybe you want explicitly one program to deal with your files. After all, you can download OfficeSuite on Android as you please (or whatever Microsoft Office knock-off that is being sold on the Windows Store for Windows Phones), but you'll find the compatibility is less than ideal for a Word doc you were editing on the native Microsoft Word for PC. Having one program to deal with that issue sure is a life saver, over finding an app designed for the environment it's working on, with good quality and compatibility.

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Wishbone: You can already have all of this without UWP. You are saying that UWP will make things easier for developers from a purely technical perspective. This is true. I am saying it will not automatically make things better for end users, and will make it easier to make it worse for them. This is also true.
At the developers' expenses of course. Last I heard of such a cross-platform saving system, it was in Butterscotch Shenanigans' Crashlands, and they force you to use their own servers to do the cloud-saving bit PLUS whatever DRM they threw in on your platform of choice. Of course to get on their own servers, you need a Butterscotch ID. Microsoft makes it more lovable for developers and us end users by providing the framework already built, needing only your Microsoft account do that cross-saving/file sharing and whatnot. Same app to download on both devices, my same files to access immediately. I get to benefit from this.

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Wishbone: As is everything else you've mentioned.
And Microsoft plans to bend over to these developers with the aforementioned tools. I say this should be the farthest they go in hunting out those lazy developers. They've given them the ability to make the same app across multiple devices with multiple interfaces, complete with the same compatibility and whatnot.

That said, it's not like your Universal App is forced to work on all platforms. No phone can run Quantum Break now, for no phone yet has 16GBs of built-in RAM or whatever. And some apps aren't designed to work on PCs either. It's all up to the developers to utilize these tools very well, and when they do, the end result is going to be pleasant.
Post edited March 08, 2016 by PookaMustard
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JMich: Interstate '76?
Thanks for the info. It's a really old game from 1997. To me this hints that game makers probably have realized and close that particular error many years ago and would not benefit from any additional Microsoft solution to it. Universal timing is probably not anymore an issue today, or is it.

For Interstate '76, if the code checking the CPU cycles is only at one place one probably could kind of hack it and introduce an arbitrary slowing down factor there. But I totally agree. Bad design.
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JMich: ... Civilization 5 ...
I'm crying. It runs more smoothly on their notebook than on my PC (only their screen is considerably smaller)!

One thing I'm all for is unifying the input methods: keyboard, mouse, touch screen, game controller, force glove, .... My hope would be that if there would be more common APIs for all of them it would be easier to combine all these input methods to create cool experiences in different environments/situations.

But this is not Windows specific. It could as well be done plattform independent.
Post edited March 08, 2016 by Trilarion
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Trilarion: To me this hints that game makers probably have realized and close that particular error many years ago
I wish I was as optimistic as you are about that.
Game developers are one of the slowest people to change their coding practices. Multi user environments have been in use for more decades than I can recall, yet the developers still coded their games as if only one user would be on the machine, and that said user would have full access. Games coded in 2013 still had issues with UAC and where expecting to be ran elevated, and that is something that anyone working with Windows should be aware of.
No, gaming developers are not people that will identify and fix an error in their coding practices easily.
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MaximumBunny: My understanding of it is that it allows cross-compatibility between Windows devices without the need to recode something for each individual device (desktop/console/mobile/other). That on its own seems like a positive, right?
That was also the advantage of Java & Unity. Java uses bytecode and emulation, and/or JIT recompiling. Unity compiles c# code for behavior and the rest of the framework is programmed for each device so it moves over flawlessly. (on the other hand for Unity, some more advanced features for graphical effects are more limited on mobile devices, but that's to be expected)

There's rarely good 1-stop solutions.
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MaceyNeil: b) For probably over a decade now (is it a decade?) people have stuck doggedly to windows xp. Why? Because it's a no frills system that everything's been running on well,
And Vista had a horrible launch... And it's sorta the standard to which a lot of applications and games were developed for. Not only that there's tools to remove most of the bloat, so you can have an XP system that only uses like 100Mb of hard drive space and works excellent!

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JMich: No, gaming developers are not people that will identify and fix an error in their coding practices easily.
With the turn-around for how often they are fired or get burned out... do you expect to have very many veteran programmers working on games?

Oh while i'm on the topic. #FucKonami
Post edited March 08, 2016 by rtcvb32