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General discussionSuggestions wanted for GOG Mix: Games that treat GOG customers as second class citizens(1561 posts) (1561 posts) 
(1561 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 25, 2018
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fronzelneekburm: One of the people behind Defender's Quest recently had some very interesting things to say about this:

GOG is extremely aggressive about seeking parity -- I know b/c I'm a dev and without fail, if I update the Steam version and forget to update GOG I'm gonna get an email from them within 24 hours politely requesting a parity update -- and such a clause is in my contract.

The trick is enforcement. GOG has limited leverage over large devs, and large devs aren't always well incented to keep GOG updated. Given GOG's smaller market share, I would guess if GOG pushed too hard on this issue certain devs would just not release on the platform so they could spare the friction. It's a tricky balance.
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fronzelneekburm: Sauce
I saw that too, and it makes perfect sense to me. Very unfortunate but it does make sense.
Posted July 26, 2018
I'm going to copy the whole tweet from here, courtesy of Lars Doucet (@larsiusprime), a developer of Defender's Quest, and condense the entire thread into one forum post for archival purposes (and to link people in case they ask about GOG version parity). So without further ado.

Lot of commenters talking about how GOG needs to push harder to force developers to give them parity updates. Thing is, that's already in GOG contracts (at least it is in mine). The trick is enforcing that without scaring devs off the platform entirely.

If I update my game on Steam and forget to update GOG, I will get a polite email from GOG within like 24 hours, without fail. They're pretty aggressive about seeking this. But their leverage is limited -- if a dev doesn't want to update, what are they gonna do, sue?

How many devs do you think would still post on GOG if GOG got a reputation for being litigious about things like that? They'd probably skip the platform entirely. GOG has to thread the needle and keep things in balance, mostly relying on goodwill to get parity updates.

There's two things GOG can do to encourage parity updates that they're not doing already:
1) Improve their update pipeline to be as seamless as possible (this has gotten better lately). This has diminishing returns, though.
2) Increase their market share. This is the big one.

Devs in my experience want two things out of a platform:
1) Market share power to sell copies of their game
2) Low friction -- the more they have to hassle with, the less attractive, especially if 1) is already lower

And hassle comes in many forms. There's a ton of devs I know who would take 5% less sales if they could make one entire category of complaints disappear entirely. This is a frequently cited reason for not supporting e.g. Mac or Linux. (I support both FYI so don't yell at me)

That's also a thing to keep in mind with loudly complaining as a way to seek what you want -- in some cases it works and gets the dev's attention, in other cases it makes the dev think, "how can I avoid ever opening myself up to this daily source of pain in the first place?"

None of this is to make a claim about what's fair or not, etc, it's just an observation about how things actually are, based on my limited experience as both a dev and a player/customer, and talking to platform holders, seeing a bit of the view from all three sides.
Posted July 26, 2018
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fronzelneekburm: One of the people behind Defender's Quest recently had some very interesting things to say about this:

"GOG is extremely aggressive about seeking parity -- I know b/c I'm a dev and without fail, if I update the Steam version and forget to update GOG I'm gonna get an email from them within 24 hours politely requesting a parity update -- and such a clause is in my contract."
Sauce
I am glad that GOG seeks parity. Is that dev willing to charge a lower cost here to make up for the difference in version parity? It does sound unfair that smaller devs may be held to a different standard than bigger devs but on the other hand, I feel smaller devs should be more eager to please their customers than bigger devs, meaning it shouldn't result in so much whining and feet-stamping just to keep the GOG version and Scheme version the same. You can tell from the quote what the priority is..."if I update the Steam version and forget to update GOG"...you sure don't see any devs updating the GOG version first and forgetting to update the Scheme version. In fact I can't think of a single example. Hence why, as a loyal GOG customer, I have very little patience for devs who engage in feet-stamping and excuses why they can't provide updates to the product I paid my hard-earned money for on here.

I'm hesitant about including cases like Aragami, since the devs are willing to hand out free Steam keys to gog customers. Yes, the gog version is still inferior, but you get the full game on Steam plus a gog download for the full game minus level editor and modding functionality. It's a shitty band aid solution (and also one that actively encourages devs to leave their games abandoned here), but still, the gog customer gets ostensibly the better deal than the Steam customer. They're not really treating us as a second class citizens then, are they? Thoughts?
With all due respect, my thought is that they are indeed treating us as a second-class citizen in that example. A free Scheme key is worthless to me and to many other GOG consumers who refuse to use Scheme. For folks like me, it is DRM-free or bust. The Scheme version may as well not exist if I can't own it and what you mentioned about encouraging devs to abandon the versions here is only compounding the problem.
Post edited July 26, 2018 by rjbuffchix
Posted July 26, 2018
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rjbuffchix: With all due respect, my thought is that they are indeed treating us as a second-class citizen in that example. A free Scheme key is worthless to me and to many other GOG consumers who refuse to use Scheme. For folks like me, it is DRM-free or bust.
That's fair enough, but this GOGmix isn't about "DRM-free or bust", but about games (or devs) that treat GOG customers differently than customers of other services (i.e. basically Steam). In the case of Aragami, its devs are in fact offering *more* to GOG customers: a Steam key for the complete version of the game, plus a totally DRM-free but gimped version downloadable from GOG. It sucks big time that one cannot get the full experience completely DRM-free, but the fact that you (or anyone else) refuse to acknowledge the existence of Steam is besides the point.
Posted July 26, 2018
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PookaMustard: There's a ton of devs I know who would take 5% less sales if they could make one entire category of complaints disappear entirely. This is a frequently cited reason for not supporting e.g. Mac or Linux. [...]

That's also a thing to keep in mind with loudly complaining as a way to seek what you want -- in some cases it works and gets the dev's attention, in other cases it makes the dev think, "how can I avoid ever opening myself up to this daily source of pain in the first place?"
In other words, the devs mentioned are looking for how can they be as anti-customer as possible and get away with it. Question then being, do we want those devs here in the first place? I mean, if you just want legally purchased games, you can get them elsewhere. If you want them here, you want them under certain terms... Which conditions have been taking massive blows for several years now, but still.

Also applies to what muntdefems said. Those who just want to know they get the full experience of the game regardless of conditions would have gotten it on Steam in the first place.

A bit of a stretch, even more so now when basically DRM free is the only thing left, but can to some extent compare with, say, those who care about how healthy and/or environmentally-friendly products are. They unfortunately don't make for the largest market share, but they are a class of consumer, a demanding one at that, which some manufacturers also cater to, and their public image improves if they do. Or CSR practices and campaigns, which carry costs and don't directly increase income, but improve the company's standing among the most demanding public, those who go even beyond looking into the characteristics of the product and check the company's practices in general as well.
Posted July 26, 2018
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Cavalary: Also applies to what muntdefems said. Those who just want to know they get the full experience of the game regardless of conditions would have gotten it on Steam in the first place.
I didn't say the Aragami devs aren't treating anybody as 2nd class citizens. They definitely are to those who care for DRM- and client-freedom, or don't care about Steam. I only pointed out that in the most strict interpretation of what this GOGmix is about, the game in question probably shouldn't be in it.

But after giving it a second thought, it probably should stay in it, methinks. Updating the comment, in order to state that Steam keys are being offered to all owners of the game on GOG, but making it clear that if you buy it here you'll be missing on some features (which you may care about, or not).
Posted July 26, 2018
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Steam offers better language support for the classic Broken Swords, Arx Fatalis and Arcancia:

BROKEN SWORD 1 CLASSIC Steam: English, German, French, Spain, Italian

BROKEN SWORD 1 CLASSIC Gog: English only

BROKEN SWORD 2 CLASSIC Steam: English, German, French, Spain, Italian

BROKEN SWORD 2 CLASSIC Gog: English only

ARX FATALIS Steam: English, German, French, Italian, Spain, Russian

ARX FATALIS Gog: English only

ARCANIA Gog misses many voice overs from the Steam version though it's the same publisher. According to THQ Nordic it's Gog's fault, not theirs.
Post edited July 26, 2018 by MBiL_248
Posted July 27, 2018
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muntdefems: That's fair enough, but this GOGmix isn't about "DRM-free or bust", but about games (or devs) that treat GOG customers differently than customers of other services (i.e. basically Steam). [...]
Yes, I read your later post, but still - this GOGmix may not be about "DRM-free or bust", but is it about "Games/devs that threat GOG customers as second class citizens, unless they're also customers of Steam"?


It's fronzelneekburm's GOGmix, and the final word is his, just stating my understanding that the GOGmix is about what GOG customers get on this service; whether a portion are also Steam customers or not doesn't change what all get on GOG.
Posted July 27, 2018
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HypersomniacLive: Yes, I read your later post, but still - this GOGmix may not be about "DRM-free or bust", but is it about "Games/devs that threat GOG customers as second class citizens, unless they're also customers of Steam"?
I don't think that either. That's why I said I'd keep Aragami in the mix, as a warning for those GOG customers that aren't also Steam customers.
Posted July 27, 2018
I just discovered this thread, and I'm rather surprised that BATTLETECH hasn't made the list or been mentioned previously in the thread.

GOG users who pre-ordered, either here, on BackerKit, or on Kickstarter require a 3rd-party account (Paradox purchasing HBS after the game's release doesn't count; they were not a party to purchases that pre-date their involvement) and an always-on connection to the internet in order to use their custom 'mech skins (Shadow Hawk and/or Atlas).

The Steam version does NOT require a Paradox account to use the pre-order skins.

(Incidentally, the GOG version will crash-to-desktop if you're not connected to the net when you start the game, irregardless of whether or not you log in to a Paradox account after the game starts. Woe betide anybody who uses a notebook in a part of the world such as the mid-western US where open wifi isn't ubiquitous.)

Reason for edit: Final paragraph
Post edited July 27, 2018 by Skarn.852
Posted July 27, 2018
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HypersomniacLive: It's fronzelneekburm's GOGmix, and the final word is his
I'm having a crisis of faith at the moment, which is why I'm seeking input.

Gog - with its dumbass curation (anyone who refuses One Finger Death Punch needs to get his head checked) and strange habit to hand out freebies to Steam/Humble Shovelware Bundle customers (aka gog Connect) - has done its utmost to drive me into the arms of their main competitor. Naturally, having a Steam account makes me much more susceptible to offers of "Never mind that outdated gog build, you can have a free Steam key to make all your worries go away!", which I - as a brand-loyal gog customer - probably would have taken as a personal affront to less than a year ago.

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MBiL_248: ARCANIA Gog misses many voice overs from the Steam version though it's the same publisher. According to THQ Nordic it's Gog's fault, not theirs.
Added all your suggestions and the Arcania case wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. They probably sent these files to gog ages ago and no one bothered to put them online. Wouldn't be the first time something like this happened.



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Skarn.852: I just discovered this thread, and I'm rather surprised that BATTLETECH hasn't made the list or been mentioned previously in the thread.

GOG users who pre-ordered, either here, on BackerKit, or on Kickstarter require a 3rd-party account (Paradox purchasing HBS after the game's release doesn't count; they were not a party to purchases that pre-date their involvement) and an always-on connection to the internet in order to use their custom 'mech skins (Shadow Hawk and/or Atlas).

The Steam version does NOT require a Paradox account to use the pre-order skins.

(Incidentally, the GOG version will crash-to-desktop if you're not connected to the net when you start the game, irregardless of whether or not you log in to a Paradox account after the game starts. Woe betide anybody who uses a notebook in a part of the world such as the mid-western US where open wifi isn't ubiquitous.)

Reason for edit: Final paragraph
Uhhh... wow.

I've added it to the list, but can anyone confirm this? That seems to be a rather glaring issue. Always-on, third party account and gog shouldn't even be in the same sentence.
Posted July 27, 2018
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fronzelneekburm: Added all your suggestions and the Arcania case wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. They probably sent these files to gog ages ago and no one bothered to put them online. Wouldn't be the first time something like this happened.
Thanks for your effort. You probably right in relation to Arcania. GOG said over a year ago they would add the missing languages in the future, but you've been around long enough... ;-)

Regarding Broken Sword: The missing languages relate to the Broken Sword Classic versions, perhaps you should add this information to your list? (The entries belongs to the Remastered versions since the Classics are only free DLC for the buyers of the Remastered versions. They are free on Steam as well but with better language support.)
Posted July 27, 2018
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fronzelneekburm: There were a number of requests for additions, particularly concerning VR stuff, that I'm still unsure about including.
Those were made mostly by me, because I was searching for GOG games with VR support and found out, that quite a few games available on GOG do support VR, but only in the Steam versions and not on GOG.
I didn't know that you could get a Steam key for Race The Sun from the developers (because I've owned it on Steam before getting it on GOG), but for Kona and The Vanishing of Ethan Carter I would have to re-buy on Steam to get VR support.

It's not that GOG doesn't support VR at all. There are plenty of games on GOG that do work without problems in VR, like Obduction, Overload, GNOG, Scanner Sombre, MIND Path to Thalamus etc. So I don't see a reason why there are some games on GOG that only offer VR on Steam.

Also, P.O.L.L.E.N really needs to be on your list, not because of the borked VR on GOG, but because it's missing a large update and a permanent price decrease from 25$ to 10$, as I've mentioned here.

Also Broforce. It's still missing update 2018.4.
I wrote them a message via contact form on their homepage months ago, which was never answered.
fortune_p_dawg tried to contact them on twitter and on the Steam forum and also never received an answer.
Three different people (me among them) also asked about the update in this Steam forum thread and also never received an answer.
So, the developer seems to completely ignore all GOG customers.
Posted July 27, 2018
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Escape Goat seems to be missing on the list. The GOG version is 1.05 while the latest Steam version is 1.0.9.3 including EFIGS localisation! I will contact the devs and see if they just missed updating GOG.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/?appids=251370


Edit: I contacted the dev about this and the missing Escape Goat 2 level editor. Got a reply the same day:

"Hi Marko,
That's a very fair point, and I hadn't realized I have a different version on Steam. I was leading development of the newer version there, because of how easy it was to update it compared to GOG. It may take me a few days to revive the installer package creator and make sure the new version works outside of Steam, but I plan to do this soon. Thanks for letting me know.
Best,
Ian"

Sounds promising to me. :)
Post edited July 27, 2018 by MarkoH01
Posted July 27, 2018
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fronzelneekburm: I'm having a crisis of faith at the moment, which is why I'm seeking input.
I always check your list (expecially through Magog) to avoid bad surprises when I buy games here.
I only use Gog as a store, so an inferior game version + Steam key wouldn't be a good alternative to me.
So my "vote" is to keep these in the list, despite the.. same value for Steam users.
Please? :P
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussionSuggestions wanted for GOG Mix: Games that treat GOG customers as second class citizens(1561 posts) (1561 posts) 
(1561 posts)