Thanks for feedback, I really appreciate it. Both parts.
yogsloth: I was always telling the truth when I compared it to Twin Peaks and wanted to find out more about the story of our Town and its characters.
Have no player really figured out what the flavour and this whole "Twin Peaks" setting was about?
yogsloth: The not-as-Good Confusing / incomplete PMs- Probably no need to beat you up on this as you already know - but there were at least four players that didn't understand or were confused by their PMs. RW didn't understand his role, CSPVG and I didn't understand our limitations, and poor Leonard just got hosed with the "worst flavour ever", lol. A confused player is an unhappy player - so please just remember that the players don't always understand what you think is obvious, and over-explain roles so there can't be any confusion.
The RWarehall's ability was plain error on my part, sure. That's not really about setup but my brain fart. :-) But sure, it's mistake.
In your case it was mostly about 1 word. It would be likely better if I put there "you can't be seen" instead of "followed" but otherwise it offered sufficient amount of informations and explanations. It certainly in no way hinted you will be unkillable if you use your ability.
As for CSPVG I don't remember him complaining about not understanding his limitations and I think his PM is clear enough so I diagree here.
With Leonard, it was mistake. It was partly based on the fact that I tried to joke at the beginning of the game but I quickly learnt it was bad move because people took everything too seriously and tried to find minor nuances and hidden meaning in everything I said. So I admit it was certainly bad move to put it there. And Leoanrd didn't help when he claimed he has no flavour whatsoever. It wasn't the case and the part about it being stupid was about reasoning for his ability in his flavour. :-)
But yeah, abd move on my part.
yogsloth: Swinginess - This game had multiple ways it could have ended Night 1! (Arsonist and Strongman kill each other, then take out other scum with any of two of lynch, bomb, vig) I know this is only personal taste - and it's totally legitimate opinion to disagree - but I always feel that pouring too much complication into a game can lead to such swingy nights that the whole game feels random, and that's a huge danger. Could you imagine what would have happened if Krysyn had succeeded Night 1? The whole game would have gone down quick and painfully.
I fully agree.
It was swingy as hell. It could go the way you described or there could be no NK at all if both docs got the save. Or any mix in-between.
You are right and I understand some people might not like it. I personally don't want to see it in every game and wouldn't use it in every game (my previous ones were quite vanilla), but I wanted to try it.
I as mod was willing to take full responsibility if the game ended too quickly. There was the chance and if it would happen I hope people would understand and we could move on to another game and be done with it. It wouldn't be optimal but I too the risk to try to use more creative setup. It was price for it I was willing to take.
I am bit confused why you consider this and randomness bad things when you enjoyed the game. Did you enjoy it despite this?
Funny thing about it is that I was the one who warned most about swinginess of flubbucket's game and then I probably went even further with my own. :-)
yogsloth: Randomness and Failure roles - Of course it's not the Bible, but the wiki does actually define percentages themselves as "
bastard modding". The problem with them is one of a fundmental rule of life, and that is: When you can't
see the dice, there
are no dice. Combined with the numerous failure roles potentially in play (such as the naive doctor), and you get a game where players feel like they don't have any control over their own actions. That's frustrating to play.
As you might have noticed, I am not the one to follow the mafiascum.net to the letter. There are other sites as well and I also like to bring something of my own to the mix.
It's again one of the things I wanted to try. It is not something I would use in every game. We had game with items here (I even think I had percentage shot there :-)). I think that's not something you would find on mafiacum.net too, it's not something you want to see every game but I personally don't think it is bad thing.
And what about rolling roles? People don't see dices there too but roles are rolled randomly too and they tend to believe it. ;-)
yogsloth: And finally - I wish you'd had a little more charity in your post-game analysis.
Hmmm, no.
I wanted to say it all how I feel it. Everything I said I only said because I want to be fair and want people to get better.
I am quite critical person in real life as well, even to myself, I know that. But it doesn't mean I hate thing I critique. If you would perhaps look at older "Games Finished" thread you would see how I posted about a lot of games. I said 2 things I like then 20 I felt were off and I still rated it 8/10 because for me it is easier to formulate the things I dislike than like and even when I mention them they are not as bad as overall impression.
But I am also critical only toward people I am close to because I feel like I can dare to do it. I play mafia to argue with people in controlled environment. I am not good at arguing and I started to play mafia because I wanted to try it and get better.
I try to be as open in game as possible because I feel like I can dare to and I consider this to be still part of game and I hope will stand if I am open.
It certainly wasn't meant to insult people at all and I really hope people didn't take it in such way. If it came off in such way then I apologize as it wasn't my intent. I just wanted to offer my thoughts and offer people something to perhaps think off. The same way I wanted to hear people's opinion of me but they rarely came.
I still think town could do much better. They were in perfect spot after D1 and D2 and they managed to lose. Because this happened I think it is not so unfair to say there were many errors in players' plays.
yogsloth: With the incredible power invested in that role, is it really that unreasonable to think you might feed him the names of Scum team?
Yes it was the most unreasonable thing to think that occured this game (and maybe all games here:-)) without any doubt.
Also, what incredible power was invested into SK?
(Some of you still think I favoured the SK and wanted him to win since the time I started to design the game. It's entirely false. I don't care who wins, I just wanted everyone to have fun.
Do you want to know how I proceeded with creating this setup? I knew it will be 14 players and I mused about how to create scums. I thought only 3 mafia wouldn't be enough and I thought 4 would be too much so I wondered how to balance it. I thought of SK as I haven't sued it in the past and thought it would be cool if I used arsonist as variation. I then had the idea that it would be cool if one town's win condition was tied to it and he had to protect SK. It was aimed at that player, not SK. I then thought about how he should be of use to SK and I came with bulletproof. It is normal to provide him with vest and I gave him the power to be bit stronger but through other person he needed to keep alive. That was supposed to be all but upon reviewing I came to feeling like it he would be most screwed by mad bomber (he was only side that would auto lose when one of it's members would get bombed) so I gave him the bomb protection.)
yogsloth: Saying Scum team deserved to lose is also unfair, but I might be biased there!
I didn't say scum team deserved to lose.
I said they had no right to win after 1 was shot N1, another one was seen visited by that person with protective ability and 3rd was suspected since D1, vig tried to shoot him and he got investigated afterwards.
yogsloth: Some of the individual assessments are also quite a bit unfair - in both directions. I won't name names, but there are two or three that make me wonder if you read the same game I was playing! The potential to hurt feelings with such analysis is too great - this is definitely a feature I will be skipping as moderator.
Yeah, they very likely are. That's why I asked people to let me know if they disagree. I certainly haven't read everything in game. I don't do it as player and I did it probably even less as mod. At the beginning I did but as the game progressed and there were many Walls-of-text I started to skim over them. I said it with cristi and I know you consider her as one of those because you said so in your assesment of people. For some reason I don't remember anything from her posts. I said so, I know it was not rightm but it just left no impression in me.
But sure, you are right, I don't doubt there are some unfair there. They were my personal opinions and as I don't have perfect reads as player I don't have them out of game either. :-)
To be fair, when I read yours I too wondered if we were reading the same game as I don't think everyone played flawlessly and at the peak of their abilities as your assessment made it sound. ;-)
Even though I am disputing a lot of what you said I am glad you did and I will think about it next time I host game. (at least I like to think so but it is far away and I will probably forget it all:-))
Woohoo, I am starting new job tomorrow. I hope it won't suck.
