It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
snowkatt: i would still argue that its not the fault of consoles
otherwise the wii woudl have hundereds of fps games since it had the biggest market

the dumbing down started with call of duty 4 that is where it all went downhill
avatar
sharp299: Sorry to contradict you, but "in my opinion" the major culprit was not COD4, it was HALF-LIFE, before that game the FPS have no story and scripts were used only to activate traps or open specific doors, all maps had secret places to find.

HL was the first FPS to stop the player and "force" it to see it's story, it was so linear and no secrets on the map. I do not mean HL is bad game, it's one of my beloved games but that does not take away the guilt.
Halflife may have introduced the world the the wonders of scripting, but it was a long way from being a linear corridor of scripted thrills. There were secrets, but more importantly, there were a lot of different ways of doing things. As far as linear FPSs go, it was actually amazing non-linear. And I don't remember it EVER forcing you to pay attention to the story. You were generally free to bypass dialogue and ignore scripted events as you wished.
avatar
jefequeso: No, I think the fault lies with gamers on that one. Don't you remember how much people used to complain about backtracking? I think for a lot of people, the introduction of rebounding health and more focused level design seemed like welcome streamlining.

It's kind of the same thing that happened with survival horror. People complained about the original Resident Evil formula, celebrated Resident Evil 4, then started complaining that there aren't any real survival horror games anymore. I think it's hard to know whether a change is actually for the better until you've actually gotten to live with the change.

I know I really liked rebounding health when I was younger, because I thought it solved some of the problems associated with health packs (most notably, being screwed over in a fight because you didn't have enough health coming into it).
avatar
Crewdroog: Fortunately I don't cause I really just played games back in the day and rarely read up on them or reviews. I used my brother and friends for game suggestions. Plus, the internetz was in it's infancy when I started playing FPS. I haven't played Doom 1 in a long time. Maybe I should boot it up and see if I am annoyed. I mean cause rose-tinted glasses are a bitch. But you may be right about the gamers being at fault; I really don't know, that's why I asked the question. Maybe it is a weird, small, masochistic niche that pines for the old days. I mean, I remember being mad when I'd have to backtrack in a game to look for a key or something I missed, but it didn't ruin the game for me. And then when I did find it I was super proud of myself. Again though, if I were to play the game now, I may think differently. Although, will I be annoyed b/c it was bad game design or that I've been coddled with more linear games?

you design games, so you would know better than me ;)

And I won't lie, regenerating health has made FPS much less stress inducing for me.
I dunno. I think some people consider it bad game design, but I've never been bothered by backtracking or hunting for keys either. Actually, I kind of prefer games that require backtracking, just because I do actually end up feeling like I'm in poking around a real place rather than just being pulled along by an invisible string.

I have very strange ideas about gameplay, though. I'm very against the modern trend of "sleeker, faster, no rough edges." Sometimes, "bad design" hides some deceptively interesting and/or unique experiences.
avatar
clisair: Can you imagine how boring Doom would be with aim assist?
avatar
Fenixp: Well... Doom would be a pretty poor example as that one does, in fact, have aim assist :-P
Doom and Doom II did not have aim assist. I just now found out that there is an aim assist in the most recent version of Doom 3 but not on the doom 3 PC version that I bought when it first came out.
avatar
Fenixp: Well... Doom would be a pretty poor example as that one does, in fact, have aim assist :-P
avatar
clisair: Doom and Doom II did not have aim assist. I just now found out that there is an aim assist in the most recent version of Doom 3 but not on the doom 3 PC version that I bought when it first came out.
I'm remembering back a long way here, but as far as I can recall, Doom did not have any ability to vertically target your gun, so there's implicit aim assistance there (it just magically targetted the monsters on the platform above). Also there was no individual body part targetting, so winging someone or squarely hitting with both barrels didn't make a difference, which could be considered aim assist. Also, there was no targetting reticule as I remember, and the shotgun had quite a spread on it, so when does it become aim assist if you're not directly pointing at them but still somehow hitting them?

Given Doom was so low res, and the guns weren't exactly sniper rifles, it's hard to define whether or not you could consider it having aim assist. I'm almost certain It didn't have it in the sense that it auto-corrected your movement in order to be lined up with the monsters, just that it had a forgiving targetting system.
Today the ideal triple-a shooter should at least offer one of three things:
1. an open-world with tonnes of different activities like driving and hunting
2. a meaningful and unique storyline with reasonably deep characters
3. a focus on multiplayer where you can play with lots of people

Games that land in-between are usually deemed generic or outdated by our media and critics. I agree that shooters today focus far too much on multiplayer, its a "young-people" syndrome in my opinion.

What annoys me about this whole conversation is that the gaming media and critics, and most gamers it seems, don't have the same expectations and demands when it comes to Fantasy games. Here people are perfectly happy with having the same generic classes, storylines and characters we see in 95% of all Fantasy games !. The argument people make is that in Fantasy games you should have wizards, dragons, warriors and so on. However I can make the same argument for military shooters, which is a sub-genre in itself, something people don't want to acknowledge it seems.

So if you make a military shooter today who shall be the enemy ? the only appropriate choices are countries and people the West has had some sort of conflict with; the Nazis, Communists, Taliban, etc. Its not a huge selection of enemies to choose from. In the same way that Fantasy games seem limited to warlocks, skeletons, orcs and goblins.
So its a hypocritical conversation to begin with.

Its funny to me because so many people are trying to intellectualize the concept of 'shooting stuff with guns', They want these games to offer the same depth as a novel, yet they still complain when FPS games have "too many" cut-scenes. And why are cut-scenes such an issue with FPS but not with RPGs and other genres ? They also seem to want shooters to be less like shooters; more running around across the lands looking for stuff, more hunting animals, more crafting items...its as if they are trying to turn shooters into an Elder Scrolls game.

And then there's the whole 'regenerative health' issue, which has always been an odd argument to me, as if magical health boxes are more realistic. Not to mention that these magical health potions were distributed at certain timed intervals, making it a question of timing anyway. Lastly, if regen makes things so easy for you, simply increase the difficulty level, that's what they are for. And aiming lock-on can be turned off in most FPS games I've played.

I feel the same way about shooters as I do with racing games, it should all be about the core gameplay, in this case the action. If the action gameplay is satisfying I'll enjoy the game, regardless of how deep the storyline and characters are, regardless of whether its open-world or linear, and regardless of whether it has regenerating health or not.

Post-edit: The main issue I see from this thread is the lack of diversity in FPS games. At the same time though, too many seem to group all FPS games together, even though they come in different sub-genres, which are defined by the times we live in. Plus our gaming media, like IGN, GameSpot and TotalBiscuit don't actually want old-school games, they want innovation, something new entirely.

There's been plenty of FPS games since BioShock where I've enjoyed the single-player campaign: Brothers in Arms Hell's Highway, Resistance 2 & 3 , STALKER Call of Pripyat & Clear Sky, FEAR 2, Legendary, Call of Juarez Bound in Blood & The Cartel, Wolfenstein (2009), Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising & Red River, Borderlands 1 & 2, Metro 2033 & Last Light, Singularity, Black Ops 1 & 2, Bulletstorm, Crysis 2 & 3, Rage, The Darkness II, Alien vs Predator (2010), Far Cry 3 & 4 & Blood Dragon, Dead Island & Riptide, Wolfenstein The New Order, Enemy Front, Sniper Ghost Warrior 1 & 2, Deadfall Adventures. To each his own as always.
Post edited December 26, 2014 by R8V9F5A2
avatar
clisair: Doom and Doom II did not have aim assist. I just now found out that there is an aim assist in the most recent version of Doom 3 but not on the doom 3 PC version that I bought when it first came out.
Check your facts, please. Doom I and II had full vertical and limited horizontal autoaim. It's only logical, they were designed to be played on a keyboard, and so faced the same issues as games designed for a controller do.
avatar
clisair: Doom and Doom II did not have aim assist. I just now found out that there is an aim assist in the most recent version of Doom 3 but not on the doom 3 PC version that I bought when it first came out.
avatar
Fenixp: Check your facts, please. Doom I and II had full vertical and limited horizontal autoaim. It's only logical, they were designed to be played on a keyboard, and so faced the same issues as games designed for a controller do.
I see aim assist as FULL aim assist with auto target lock. Vertical locking on a non vertical game, IMHO, is not a true aim assist. If you shoot one side or the other the amo will not magically curve to hit the target. Doom does not correct your aim it only works in the confines of its 2d environment. To the player it looks 3d but in the editor and the game mechanics it is not really 3d but a straight line with variables and obstacles. Open a Doom or Doom II level in the editor and you will see just how true that this is.

It does not auto correct your targeting except for vertical adjustment ONLY. That is not true aim assist in any stretch of programing. It was a necessity so that the game could look like a 3D environment when it truly was not. That is why it was called a 2D/3D game.

Now ZDOOM and other platforms like it fix this issue and you no longer have that kind of "aim assist" as the mouse becomes a vertical platform and not the levels themselves.
avatar
clisair: <snip>
But in the link Fenixp posted there was evidence of horizontal assist as well. You could shoot your weapon past the target and the bullets would effectively swerve left into the monster on your left.
avatar
Bouchart: Anyone ever play Descent 1 or 2? Now there's level design. It used all three dimensions. None of that running through a single hallway like so many first person shooters. Precisely the reason why I hated Halo 1 when I played it for the first time early this year.
Played both on the original PlayStation along with Forssaken. Enjoyed all three. =)

Flynn
Death shall not take me!
avatar
drealmer7: Death shall not take me!
I thought you weren't going to simply bump but actually add to the discussion?
avatar
drealmer7: Death shall not take me!
avatar
misteryo: I thought you weren't going to simply bump but actually add to the discussion?
I intend to. Understand my method:

I had to click the "see more" dozens of times to open all the previous threads I had participated in. Then I had bunches of windows open that I had to go through and deem which were worthy and which were not. I closed 98% of the threads I had opened, and left a few that were immediately obvious or obviously something to consider, perused what I thought I might want to contribute to or really thought others might want to at some point in the future. Some threads may take more consideration or time and I wanted to more "bookmark" some that I may not have the time to attend to tonight before GOG goes and locks them away. I don't think I did anything too egregious.
uh okay then
avatar
roninnogitsune: Doom and Quake were no Citizen Kane
BITE YOUR FACE
i wouldn't say they gone backwards if you look at all newer fps games, not just cod & bf. but i hate the health regeneration shit implemented in almost every new fps game.