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General discussionHarry Potter and GOG Mafia #64(1552 posts)(1552 posts)
(1552 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 18, 2020
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Carradice: As seen from here, the veterans in the wolf pack had lots of fun blazing through D1 (especially Yogs, who drew attention since the very beginning) and even more brazenly on D2 (with 1 no-lynch and with one of the most townie players lynched). That was recognized by a number of people, including Joe, GR and Carradice, who performed actions on SPF and Yogsloth. The aftermath of the actions led Yogsloth to think that the game was imbalanced.
TBh it was Yog's making his claim D1 and his pushing for Micro's lynch so much that made me suspect him....else i'd likely have gone after someone else(for lynch and to use my power on). If he'd been a tad more subtle he might have helped scum win this game.

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Carradice: Yogs was caught even without GR's shots.
Maybe, but who knows.....without me coming out he might've swayed everyone to vote someone else....who knows.

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Carradice: Moreover, GR's two other shots were spent on confirming players that were considered townie with good reason, in order to build a most-cleared base, not on directly hunting scum.
Yup....I felt it better to have cleared town to hunt scum rather than do so myself(which I often mess up).
Posted March 18, 2020
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Carradice: Yogs was caught even without GR's shots.
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GameRager: Maybe, but who knows.....without me coming out he might've swayed everyone to vote someone else....who knows.
The point of this is showing how their play lines outed them, not town powers. Powers were used more effectively because of scum play lines, instead of them being discovered by town powers. When the first (and last) investigative shot hit scum, SPF was already knocked out and Yogs had already been blocked and charges were already written against him.

Of course he might have fought on... But the offensive was planned with care: Think MacArthur planning the invasion of Japan and then being surprised by The Bomb.

There were already four others who openly suspected Yogsloth. Then that bone would have been gnawed restlessly from the beginning to the end of the Day. It would have been Delenda est Cartago in every post. Flockes's flip weakened Yogs position (he started FLocke's bandwagon in speech and vote), too. If everything failed and people had tried to lynch someone other than SPF or Yogs, the card of explaining the lack of NK might have been played. SPF's demise simplified things as the effort had to focus only on one. The timing and the content of that long post was also intended for maximum impact and influencing the narrative early on D3. Also, SPF's fate had weakened the spirits in Scum team, leaving them more vulnerablet. But yes, for sure it might have been a fight instead of simply conceding.


@ZFR: Thanks for the clarification. Having two NK on N1 with no-lynch might have been hard on Town.


Also, something that the Werewolves underplayed: we were wondering about a hypotetical N0 and they had a night and day Scum chat. Holy Potatoes. That was powerful and it has been barely mentioned. Plus the speak-from-the-grave thing. Really with a great potential impact and very novice-friendly (also, if Scum3 had listened more to the veterans, things might have been different in the endgame, but morale and the suspect of Town having an investigative arsenal that was not there caused said mistakes). A great advantage and it has been barely mentioned when discussing balance.
Posted March 18, 2020
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Carradice: Also, something that the Werewolves underplayed: we were wondering about a hypotetical N0 and they had a night and day Scum chat. Holy Potatoes. That was powerful and it has been barely mentioned. Plus the speak-from-the-grave thing. Really with a great potential impact and very novice-friendly (also, if Scum3 had listened more to the veterans, things might have been different in the endgame, but morale and the suspect of Town having an investigative arsenal that was not there caused said mistakes). A great advantage and it has been barely mentioned when discussing balance.
I don't think it's as powerful as you make out. It allowed coaching in this particular instance, but if Joppo had been an experienced player I think the impact of the Night/Day/Dead chat would have been minimal. I have to say though, I did enjoy still being able to engage with the game after dying.
I don't normally follow all that closely after I die regardless of alignment because nothing I think/say/do can affect the outcome and I'm not really one for spectating (don't get the appeal of sports, let's plays etc.).
Posted March 18, 2020
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Carradice: Also, something that the Werewolves underplayed: we were wondering about a hypotetical N0 and they had a night and day Scum chat. Holy Potatoes. That was powerful and it has been barely mentioned. Plus the speak-from-the-grave thing. Really with a great potential impact and very novice-friendly (also, if Scum3 had listened more to the veterans, things might have been different in the endgame, but morale and the suspect of Town having an investigative arsenal that was not there caused said mistakes). A great advantage and it has been barely mentioned when discussing balance.
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SirPrimalform: I don't think it's as powerful as you make out. It allowed coaching in this particular instance, but if Joppo had been an experienced player I think the impact of the Night/Day/Dead chat would have been minimal. I have to say though, I did enjoy still being able to engage with the game after dying.
I don't normally follow all that closely after I die regardless of alignment because nothing I think/say/do can affect the outcome and I'm not really one for spectating (don't get the appeal of sports, let's plays etc.).
However you could coordinate in real time during the Day, instead of just planning from Night to Night. That was the greatest advantage. Agreed that the talk beyond the grave was good for guidance and morale, but less important compared to the Day talk.
Posted March 18, 2020
Also,

#### BALANCE ####

Let us make this short

Really, really promise you that the sentence above was written in all honesty at the time. :)

Anyway, those were the things that required commentary, or most of them. Lots of fun and it was impressive how Scum team managed to influence the conversaton during Days 1 and 2. The dialectic duel between Yogs and RWarehall on D1 was one of the best discussions in the whole game. And had Micro been an ounce less the tough bone he proved himself to be, Scum might had lynched the IC on D1.


Wondering whom did RWarehall protect on N1. Has it been made public already?
Posted March 18, 2020
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Carradice: The point of this is showing how their play lines outed them, not town powers.
I got that....I was just musing/etc.

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Carradice: There were already four others who openly suspected Yogsloth. Then that bone would have been gnawed restlessly from the beginning to the end of the Day. It would have been Delenda est Cartago in every post. Flockes's flip weakened Yogs position (he started FLocke's bandwagon in speech and vote), too. If everything failed and people had tried to lynch someone other than SPF or Yogs, the card of explaining the lack of NK might have been played. SPF's demise simplified things as the effort had to focus only on one. The timing and the content of that long post was also intended for maximum impact and influencing the narrative early on D3. Also, SPF's fate had weakened the spirits in Scum team, leaving them more vulnerablet. But yes, for sure it might have been a fight instead of simply conceding.
Yup

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Carradice: Also, something that the Werewolves underplayed: we were wondering about a hypotetical N0 and they had a night and day Scum chat. Holy Potatoes. That was powerful and it has been barely mentioned. Plus the speak-from-the-grave thing. Really with a great potential impact and very novice-friendly (also, if Scum3 had listened more to the veterans, things might have been different in the endgame, but morale and the suspect of Town having an investigative arsenal that was not there caused said mistakes). A great advantage and it has been barely mentioned when discussing balance.
Good points

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Carradice: Anyway, those were the things that required commentary, or most of them. Lots of fun and it was impressive how Scum team managed to influence the conversaton during Days 1 and 2. The dialectic duel between Yogs and RWarehall on D1 was one of the best discussions in the whole game. And had Micro been an ounce less the tough bone he proved himself to be, Scum might had lynched the IC on D1.
As for Micro, I almost was going to investigate him but then changed my mind as I found it a dumb idea.....good thing I didn't do that, eh? :)

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Carradice: Wondering whom did RWarehall protect on N1. Has it been made public already?
Is it not in the OP notes thread linked by ZFR a bit earlier?
Post edited March 18, 2020 by GameRager
Posted March 18, 2020
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Carradice: Wondering whom did RWarehall protect on N1. Has it been made public already?
He protected GameRager
Posted March 18, 2020
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SirPrimalform: I don't think it's as powerful as you make out. It allowed coaching in this particular instance, but if Joppo had been an experienced player I think the impact of the Night/Day/Dead chat would have been minimal. I have to say though, I did enjoy still being able to engage with the game after dying.
I don't normally follow all that closely after I die regardless of alignment because nothing I think/say/do can affect the outcome and I'm not really one for spectating (don't get the appeal of sports, let's plays etc.).
The Day Chat was more useful that talk-after-dying Chat. The latter, like the change to Innocent Child and Miller, was put more to make things interesting than to give Mafia a tangible advantage.
Posted March 18, 2020
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SirPrimalform: I don't think it's as powerful as you make out. It allowed coaching in this particular instance, but if Joppo had been an experienced player I think the impact of the Night/Day/Dead chat would have been minimal. I have to say though, I did enjoy still being able to engage with the game after dying.
I don't normally follow all that closely after I die regardless of alignment because nothing I think/say/do can affect the outcome and I'm not really one for spectating (don't get the appeal of sports, let's plays etc.).
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Carradice: However you could coordinate in real time during the Day, instead of just planning from Night to Night. That was the greatest advantage. Agreed that the talk beyond the grave was good for guidance and morale, but less important compared to the Day talk.
I wasn't feeling much of an advantage from the daychat TBH. I think during the day the mafia should be moving independently anyway. Perhaps I'm just not seeing the potential due to my lack of experience in using it.
Posted March 18, 2020
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Carradice: 1) Trying to have Carradice lynched early. Discussed in the game thread and on Madam Pomfrey's. It was an action so predictable that it was labelled "the mousetrap". Joe started it and Joppo gave it a nudge as well. So far they had done great at being perfectly townie for everyone else (especially Joppo).
OPINION: A less predictable line might have been more useful. Especially since there were viable alternatives (including 3 below).
Do you mean Day 3? I genuinely wasn't trying to get you lynched! I voting for Pooka the whole time - It was never my intention to sow suspicion among the confirmed players, I just had a few thoughts that I thought worth asking you about.

When I thought about it, it was pretty clear that you were confirmed, (barring third-party godfathers which I didn't want to get people thinking about) but answering my questions would have helped me realise that a bit sooner. As it is, I felt you were overreacting to the smallest amount of suspicion, which could have been seen as a scum tell. In hindsight it would have been better tactically to ignore you, but then I wouldn't have been forced to false claim, which was a lot of fun, so.

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Carradice: @Joe: Two questions if you feel like answering: 1) Why did you wait until N2 for your first kill? Waiting to see someone outing themselves as clearly scum so that you could earn vigilante credit?. 2) The confusion on D3 about Yogsloth conceding was because you did not expect the scum team to be that weakened so soon? 3) How did you select your objectives, an which would have been the next ones, had you had the chance to go on?
By the way, congrats for a good fake claim. It was weird enough but plausible enough to pass for real. That and the vigilante claim prevented your demise on D4. Also, you had a very good game from D1 to D3, as seen from here in retrospective. Lastly, nice chart!! It made the best moment in the last week.
1 - the 'conditional' qualifier to my role meant I couldn't kill unless I hadn't killed the previous Night (I'd taken out Parvati Patil Night 0 which was the reason why I couldn't kill Night 1)
If I'd stuck to my guns and held off my Night 4 kill a night or two, I'd have drawn a lot less attention to myself.

2 - The confusion was exactly what I said it was the whole time - I didn't know what he meant, and I wanted to know what he meant.
Now I understand that he had rolecopped gamerager and assumed he was One-Shot I can understand his response better. 'Panic' was my own fanciful description which doesn't really describe how I felt - but Lifthrasil made as much as he could out of it.
Ooh... I just remembered that bit where he said "If you want to lynch me based on semantics..." darn Lifthrasil, that really ground my gills...

3 - I was never all that confident I'd make it to the end of the game, so my main objective was to have fun.
I was scumhunting in earnest for a lot of the game (until Lifthrasil consumed all my attention - he's right when he says I wasn't too concerned whether he was mafia or not)
After Day 3 my goal was to keep the mafia alive for a little while to do some kills for me, then once they got lynched picking up the kills to try and make it look like a 4-mafia game.
Then Night 4 happened and I just gave up on all my plans and went nuts. Ah well.

Thanks! I was half-hoping I'd get counterclaimed because it would have been hilarious. Especially after the righteously- indignant tone of my claim, and a few people backing down apologetically. It would have been great to go:

Joe: How dare you even CONSIDER voting for me? I killed SirP! I'm Fred and George Weasely
Three People: Oh no! Oh dear, sorry Joe. We've made a terrible terrible mistake.
Joe: Darn right! You should feel bad!
One Person: Hang on, I'm Fred Weasely and you're a liar!
Joe: WHOOPS!

Ah well, hopefully another time eh?
Posted March 18, 2020
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ZFR: Regarding this, those PRs that had limited shots were so because logically by definition they can't have unlimited shots. Miller with unlimited Tow-Investigation shots is a vanilla. JOAT is practically always limited shot. Innocent Child has no shots and Neighbouriser was meant to make a Neighbour pair.

The only roles which may or may not have limited shots were Cop, Role Cop and Tracker. Two were Mafia, one was Town. Two had limited shots, one was unlimited. And the shot-limit did not overlap with Town/Mafia allignment.

Attempting to infer a general rule from a known 2-person sample is not really a good practice.
Or let's put it in better words. Every role had limited shots of something, regardless of the logic behind them. Miller with unlimited Town-Investigation is a vanilla, but Miller with 1-Shot Town Investigation is a Limited Shot Role. The bodyguard could only defend once before dying. JOAT Carradice had a certain number of shots. Look around, and you will see that everyone was limited in one way or another. The fact was, where we stood on the battleground, roles were limited either by nature or intentionally, and while we were hunting for the last scum (or in my case, being completely unaware that using a power on myself = "visiting" myself), the unlimited shot tracker was a very odd one out.
Posted March 18, 2020
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ZFR: Regarding this, those PRs that had limited shots were so because logically by definition they can't have unlimited shots. Miller with unlimited Tow-Investigation shots is a vanilla. JOAT is practically always limited shot. Innocent Child has no shots and Neighbouriser was meant to make a Neighbour pair.

The only roles which may or may not have limited shots were Cop, Role Cop and Tracker. Two were Mafia, one was Town. Two had limited shots, one was unlimited. And the shot-limit did not overlap with Town/Mafia allignment.

Attempting to infer a general rule from a known 2-person sample is not really a good practice.
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PookaMustard: Or let's put it in better words. Every role had limited shots of something, regardless of the logic behind them. Miller with unlimited Town-Investigation is a vanilla, but Miller with 1-Shot Town Investigation is a Limited Shot Role. The bodyguard could only defend once before dying. JOAT Carradice had a certain number of shots. Look around, and you will see that everyone was limited in one way or another. The fact was, where we stood on the battleground, roles were limited either by nature or intentionally, and while we were hunting for the last scum (or in my case, being completely unaware that using a power on myself = "visiting" myself), the unlimited shot tracker was a very odd one out.
Even then, the Mafia revealed role was limited shot too.
If Town is red and Mafia is red, then someone claiming he's blue might stand out, but still it's not right to assume he's Mafia based on that.

Especially since if we go by your definition, then Town had an "non-limited" role too: Innocent Child.
Post edited March 18, 2020 by ZFR
Posted March 18, 2020
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ZFR: Especially since if we go by your definition, then Town had an "non-limited" role too: Innocent Child.
Limited Innocent Child: Confirmation gets rescinded the next day. :P
Posted March 18, 2020
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trentonlf: He protected GameRager
That is correct/now I remember.

(bad memory sucks sometimes, and combined with worry over the world situation[causing my mind to wander] it can be even more daunting)
Posted March 18, 2020
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ZFR: Especially since if we go by your definition, then Town had an "non-limited" role too: Innocent Child.
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SirPrimalform: Limited Innocent Child: Confirmation gets rescinded the next day. :P
Now THAT would be a bastard role. Thanks for the idea! ;-)
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussionHarry Potter and GOG Mafia #64(1552 posts)(1552 posts)
(1552 posts)