Ugh, rereading that section you can see what a mess the EoD was.
I don't think any of that is scummy by anyone, it's a mess of posts being posted before the thread has been caught up, other posts missed because if new pages etc.
While I don't find Hyper scummy for it, the one thing I find curious is that he would post with five minutes to deadline and not vote, knowing he might not be able to post for another ten minutes if no one else posted first.
But I can see he was torn as to which way to vote and whether to push cristi to a claim (and if there was time for that), so while it's a little odd I don't see it as the massive scum tell others seem to.


@Hyper
You pretty much cover my argument yourself in your reply to ZFR.
Basically the only reason I can see for you to purposefully stall the end of day to no lynch is because ZFR and cristi are both your buddies.
If that were the case by not voting either you look a little worse but save both of them, which would seem a fair trade.

@bler
I'm kind of struggling to see where you are at at the moment. I get the feeling you don't find the arguments against cristi very compelling but you seem to alternate between defending and shading her...
I agree ZFR should have been lynched yesterday, but who do you think is scum now and would lynch / vote for?

Well, then provide the missing analysis. Who else is responsible for the no-lynch?

Bookwyrm left you a note? That's strange. I didn't get any notes from rabbit. Where did Bookwyrm leave you a note? In scum-chat? Was that just a slip?

OK. Yes. True... and together with ZFR asking questions that would be dangerous for him if he were scum, perhaps that theory about him being HSL's buddy looks less likely.

Fine. You win.
unvote HSL

There. Happy?

No, I wouldn't expect her to fail this badly as scum. But with her as town this makes even less sense. Just like with you: I wouldn't expect you to drop the ball this hard as scum. But if you're town, you didn't only drop the ball, you threw it down hard. And that's something I expect even less of you.

Ah! Finally you openly and correctly state your opinion of me and your train of thought. Thank you! :-)
(and yes, I know I just took the quote out of context and mis-represented you just now. But it was just too tempting. :-) )

No. How absurd of you only to warn about the situation and not to do anything about it.
And I left that part out and ignored it? No, I even referenced it, directed directly at you. Which you, of course, ignored.
You know, you SAY that you take blame for your part in the screw-up. But when I actually blame you for that screw-up and point out that it looks scummy, you bark like a dog that's been hit. So I guess that there is something to the accusation that you are scummy.

And the rest of your questions/accusations directed at me? Well, now you are really stretching, aren't you? Bookwyrm talked about the brig mechanism. Sure, hampering scum's communication would be good. Which is why I propose to use the brig mechanism now. But his statement that it can't hurt town was wrong. If we, by chance, brig a cop or something similar, the loss in power for town would hurt more than the hampered communication for scum helps. Which is, why I proposed on the start of this day to use the brig mechanism on a claimed vanilla. We still lose one vote, but we surely don't lose any pro-town power. Because if ZFR is pro-town, he doesn't have any power.

And the next one gets even more ridicolous: 'He doesn't remember every detail of the series. He must be scum!' ... Really?

You know what, bler just convinced me to unvote you and you do your best to convince me that you are scum after all by pulling ridicolous accusations out of your ass.
Sorry, bler. HSL just IS scummy!

vote HSL

This, however, is a sentiment I completely share.

Hm. I don't really see why you don't find HSL scummy for that. You say it yourself. He is an experienced player. He knows the quirks of the forum. He knows that there is no time for a discussion. And yet he doesn't vote. This only makes sense if he is in league with cristi and ZFR. And yet you don't see it as scum-tell? What's the alternative explanation? That he was on drugs at that moment?

.... wait. Just when writing this reply I noticed that he WAS on drugs. Kind of. Sleep deprivation can do things to you and it was very late. I was, as he puts it, safely in bed while he was awake at what, 3 am? Perhaps you and bler are right and I am unfair to him after all. I still think he's scum, but bler is right. It wouldn't be tunneling if I weren't sure. And if I'm right, we might as well verify another part of that scum league before lynching him. So, let's do that.

unvote HSL
vote cristigale

unbrig ZFR
brig HSL

Right now HSL seems more scummy than ZFR. So, having two main suspects, I go with 'lynch one, brig the other'. Even if HSL is not a claimed vanilla.

Poppy opened up a QT when night fell, we didn't really talk as we thought that would be unfair, but Bookwyrm left a reads list and a few notes about his actions. I'm going to do the same when I sign back off.
This isn't exactly a normal substitution as Bookwyrm is going to be coming back.

As for who is responsible for the no Lynch, SPF is right and Bookwyrm / me does have to take some of the blame there. elebutterfly and Joe were also absent or didn't move their votes. trent's refusal to lynch people he thinks are town played some role too.
Basically we can't all be scum so some of it must be just poor luck / bad play from town players. If some if it is then all of it could be.
Saving ZFR or cristi (or both of them really as scum could easily have lynched the other) is the only reason for scum to seek a no lynch so unless that's literally the scum team it doesn't make logical sense.
And if that is the scum team then scum screwed up big time and we've got the game in the bag.

Damnation and elebutterfly are noticeably quiet.

What's AtE??

This.

this is frustrating: It makes sense if you KNOW someone's town (and in this game can you ever know with absolute certainty?) but if you just think?.. How can you be so confident in your guesses? Especially on day one.

Here's an argument for how lynching a town helps town: The majority of players think a single player is scummy, even though that player is town. They spend all day one talking about her, but don't lynch her. Come day two they also spend the whole day talking about her and end up lynching her day two. She was a very useful blind for the scums.

This example isn't taking power roles or claims into account, but it's a simple and fair example of how a lynch of a town player provides town with absolute information which can help them to better hunt mafias.

Any chance that you'll mitigate your absolute statement? I wouldn't say "I will always lynch someone no matter how sure I am that they're town."

^This

The only time I would not lynch someone who I thought might be town is if it's near the end of the game and lynching town would be dangerous or if I knew for certain (cop read) they were town or had a power role.

The point about kills in mafia, whether it's lynches, NKs or anything else, is that removing a player is only half of the equation. The other half is the flip, which is far more important.
If we knew for certain that either ZFR or cristi were town we would be in a better position today because we could look at the wagons and judge the scuminess of the participants. All we can do now is guess, and if ZFR is town then those pushing is wagon may be scum or if cristi is town those on her wagon may be scum, but as the two wagons are quite different it's either one or the other (assuming they're not both scum or town).

I know it is not how most people think, but if I think someone is town I will not vote them. That doesn’t mean my perception of someone can’t change during the course of the game. It’s not like I’m saying once I believe someone’s town that thy are always town in my eyes. But, if it’s the end of the day and someone needs one vote to be lynched and I think they are town I will not vote then.

The "now back to your regularly scheduled programme" vote count.

Lynch:

cristigale - 4 (trentonlf, flubbucket, adaliaBookwyrms, Lifthrasil)
HypersomniacLive - 2 (ZFR, elebutterfly)

Brig:

Damnation - 1 (ZFR)
trentonlf - 1 (elebutterfly)
flubbucket - 1 (SirPrimalform)
HypersomniacLive - 1 (Lifthrasil)

With 12 active players, it takes 7 votes to reach a consensus.

---

As the player who most frequently ignores this, a reminder:

Save bolding for votes and moderator questions if you have them. Consider underlining for effect instead.

Damnation has stated that he will post later today, in response to an official inactivity prod.

We've already reached the stage where the game starts taking over my brain and squeezing out other thoughts and sleep. Not a good sign.

If only I had made a reads list earlier on this very page.

But seriously, ultimately, your question about cristi gets to the crux of the matter for me : what do I think vs. what do I feel. My final post last night was almost purely about what I feel.

I feel like cristi is a meh in terms of scummery. I feel like I want to burn the ZFR slot with fire.

And I'm aware I gave both you and Lift some crap for blurring that line earlier in D2 around ZFR, but what I think is...
1) unless we're lynching him like right this very moment, we just have to accept that he's town and move on and try to ignore the distraction, as distracting as it is.
2) If town!cristi, scum already knows ...something...about her town doesn't know. Her alignment certainly, but also depending on their own collective info, something about whether she does/doesn't have a role and how it might fit.

My perception is that it's strange her brief pass through didn't tell us more and that she's leaving us hanging. If she didn't think she would be on Sunday, as the prime topic of conversation, she could have at least said "hey, here's my token first defense, here's what you can expect from me."

Instead those of us who are here are kind of twiddling our thumbs and getting mad at each other while we wait for what seems to be the elephant in the room regardless of what I might guess her alignment to be. Does that explain it? I don't find her scummiest, and having Lift (and ZFR, and to a lesser extent flub) around as shinier objects helps heighten that sense.

But in my thinking brain, the game rests on her right now whether it's what I feel or not.

I'm never happy.

I will confess that my defense of HSL is in no small part meta. It appears to me that everyone who didn't vote flub is relying heavily on meta, so........

But if HSL is mafia I will eat my hat.




As soon as I weave together a hat made of licorice. But seriously, I ain't feeling it, and akin to the argument adalia/I already made, what's the rational argument for scum!HSL not voting in that EOD? It's not town-clearing by any means, but his EOD makes more sense as town.


1) "Appeal to emotion" [url=https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Logical_Fallacies]https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Logical_Fallacies[/url] While not purely emotion, his argument is basically "I can't be scum because I would have remembered getting a scum PM and wouldn't have had this pre-game exchange over slot-swapping!" That's relying heavily on our emotion rather than actual cause/effect of action in-game.
2) Well, I did the same when I appeared and was like "hey, tell me what's happening!" If no one responded I couldn't have voted either. But 3 people did respond just to me, and he'd been present so presumably was at least seeing that a bump was likely, no?


On the one hand, this comes across as a very Trent-y POV. On the other hand, it's completely open to abuse. And...in actual application it's anti-town, along the lines Joe notes.

Take your own argument to its end point. Imagine this game game progresses to F3 - you, ele, flub. You read both as town. So...you just don't vote then? You literally have to vote someone or town loses unless it happens to be a Mexican standoff...and note in this scenario that both your reads are wrong. Your vote is your tool.

Vitek's white knighting of ZFR - was it legit, or was it a gambit to lock in his "most townie" title due to his role? IDK, but either way I disagree with you (and him, apparently) and agree with the other responses. In general most of us are wrong at least 1/4 of the time one way or another in our reads. Sometimes you have to vote with the crowd a) to eliminate distractions, b) to gain info, c) because there's a decent chance you are wrong.

FWIW, the other thing I would note is that, while I have to go back and look closer, the wagon dynamics from D1 the more I feel about it, it feels like T/T. If scum!ZFR, there should have been a harder earlier push in other directions (though this is partly why eyeballing Trent, aside from the above - if scum!ZFR, trent's departure from that wagon was what derailed it a bit). If scum!SPF, ZFR gets finished off earlier or the push for cristi comes earlier, right? Prbbably?

Work calls.

Have fun. And don't yell at each other too much.

If the game had progressed to a final 3 with me and two people I thought were town then I would have no choice but to vote who I thought was the less towny of the two, the sticking point being I would have no choice in that situation.

I don't subscribe to the belief that a lynch for info is worth it even if it's a town player, I prefer to lynch who I believe is scum. I know I will be wrong, and probably often knowing me, in my reads but that's how I prefer to play it.

I also think y'all are getting bent out of shape on this issue over semantics. When say I believe someone is town, I believe they are town. Not leaning town, not probably town, but town. By the end of the day yesterday I had two people I felt were town, Vitek and ZFR. I felt SirPrimalform was probably town, but I was not going to chance lynching a possible power role for us. I had several other people leaning town, some leaning scum, while others I had as in the middle. So when it came down to it if there had been a viable wagon on someone else other than Vitek, ZFR, or SirPrimalform I would have probably joined it. My preferred lynch yesterday was cristigale and it still is today.

Now if people prefer to lynch someone even if they think they are town then kudos to them, but I will not do it.

Had a busy weekend, sorry about that, but it's likely to be that way throughout this game for me. Whenever I have time to follow up on this game, trust that I will.

Anyhow, quite a few points that have been discussed and that I feel I should address:

The whole Orange thing getting me to think Roslin and thusly not indicating anything about powers or alignment to me (And why I believe ZFR's claim of a vanilla Roslin) is fairly simple:
We know knowledge of flavor does not indicate alignment.
What would Roslin's power even be? She's the president, sure, but what's HER power. She gets other people to do the things Lift describes. She commands, nothing more. She could have had a power, sure, but not one I'd see grounded in flavor.

While your post seems to have been made in earnest, and it can be used as ground work for more detailed vote counting, it is still incomplete (Since votes can slip through votecounts). This means it draws less than the full picture, and will lead to false conclusions. Incomplete data is either at best useless, or at worst misleading.

Where did HSL say that? Because that directly contradicts post 590.



Alright, so the elephant in the room regarding me; EoD1.
ZFR, frak you! I love your attack! (No really, I do)
Here's why: I had you pegged as town D1, and your post against me/HSL and your follow-ups against HSL solidifies this for me even more.
So, to further explain, let's draw ele's questions in:

Let me first explain my sleepiness: I was going since sunday with only 7 hours of sleep, that specific day with 20 hours of being awake, and the situation was stressful: I wasn't really thinking at my best, so keep that in mind when I explain my thoughts.

I didn't like ZFR's wagon, thus I was more inclined to vote for Cristi. In hindsight I should have voted for her earlier: Her (what I perceive as) lack of scumhunting D1 was what made me suspecious of her. At the time, I didn't think this was worthy of a lynch, simply because... I didn't think she had contributed much, which led me to be unsure.
ZFR's claim didn't convince me his lynch was bad, it convinced me I was wrong about my flavor-read on flub.
And yes, a mislynch is preferable to no lynch, but a mislynch is preferable to a town lynch.

So why the very late vote for Cristi, and not just get it over with and town-lynch ZFR, you ask?
Well, I do like me some gambits (And observant players will find I made a few D1). So, since I was more interested in a lynch of Cristi, I thought "Let's put HSL to the test" (Because apparently my sleep-adled mind didn't think HSL could be subjugated to this - especially if Lift is right, that he is in Timezone UTC+3, which made it close to 3am for him, countering my 2am).
Now, remember, Joe had stated that he was willing to change his vote from ZFR to Cristi (post 596).
If HSL jumped on Cristi: Hey lynch! If not, he'd likely have a reason to do so - either lynch a townie, or protect his scumbuddy cristi, whichever applies.
HSL knew I was more inclined to a Cristi lynch, I voted for her (Because JoeSapphire reminded me that I should vote for someone, and that any reason was good enough reason at this juncture) at the five minute mark. (The fact that I see post 594 as extreme goading doesn't help)
Three minute mark, HSL responds to my vote, indicating he was aware of it. He then waits and jumps on ZFR, knowing a lynch will not happen.
Like I said, I was very tired, and I'm sure HSL was too, but that was my thought process at the time, take it whichever way you will.

Which brings me to, I should probably vote here:
vote HypersomniacLive
Because in spite of him being tired, he was the final vote to be cast on either ZFR or Cristi, no matter which way it is turned, despite being the first to say he was fine with either lynch.
Also, pinning this all on HSL and me as some of you do I actually do find largely unfair: Bookwyrm left asking us to sort it, letting his vote be no lynch. ele left, to do something that was more important, sure, but her vote stank of OMG(oat)US on SPF, and she didn't return even a bit before the deadline to see if a consencus was reached, or if her voted was better suited elsewhere.
I'd argue everyone has blame, even if HSL and I must bear the majority of it. Anyone on ZFR's wagon could have switched, and anyone on Cristi's wagon could have switched. HSL's and my vote were not the only ones present.

Also, bler should stop making posts I agree with, I dislike it. (Okay, that's a joke, make more posts I agree with!)

So why did he prefer to brig cristigale instead, given that he was on her case for the better part of D1, and up until his last post? And what purpose did it serve, since there was no majority to actually keep her brigged overNight?


You'd be right if this had been another of our usual GOG D1/EoD1. But this game, every time I posted, or refreshed (I read the thread in one tab, reply/comment in another, often in several), I had to catch up on a number of posts that had popped up in the meantime. So while I hadn't forgotten about the 10min constraint, that risk had registered as very low chance due to the non-stop activity in the thread - I went ahead with my decision to vote ZFR without refreshing, anticipating at least one post to have popped up since my #602. It was three.


The play you suggest comes with a very short term gain - all three of us living through the Night, and even that's not guaranteed. The very next Day, however, all three of us would be under the lens, at least one of us on the chopping block, and probably dead at EoD2, and going into N2 another one quite likely in the brig; does that still sound like a fair trade?



First off, what I asked you and what you replied are not referring to the same thing. My question is, if you actually consider cristigale a strong scum-player, how can the most probable explanation for you be that she hadn't prepared her false-claim beforehand, and was stalling for time to do so at the last minutes of EoD1?

Secondly, why does it make less sense for town!her? bler144 has already mentioned a number of reasons she'd not claim the first moment she was challenged to do so. I'm not saying she is town, in fact I'm very curious and interested in hearing her explain herself and things, and her brief appearance so far Today didn't really do anything for me, but I'm surprised, to say the least, that you can't see the potential town angle of it all, and dismiss it all so quickly.


It's one thing to acknowledge the contribution of my reluctance and (over?)thinking things to the EoD1 frak up, and a completely different one to just lie down and let you tramp all over me with false accusations. Though I'm pretty certain that no matter my reaction/response to your attacks you'd take it as indication, if not evidence, of my guilt.

You're not just accusing me of being scummy, you've been dead-set since D2 start that I'm scum-buddies with ZFR and cristigale, vehemently refuse to consider any arguments (any, not just mine) pointing to you not only ignoring context (events and timeline wise) but also twisting things to fit your narrative, and when called on it, you simply ignore that too. Case in point, you referenced it in your first post, but you've completely dropped it since, and repeat my mention of the remaining time in isolation as that fits your narrative better.


Regarding the first - how is Bookwyrm627's point #3 wrong that he brig doesn't hurt town in terms of communication? Unless you have an argument of knowing that Masons are in play, town has no other means of communication outside the thread.
He made an argument of 10 points in favour of using the brig, his third point, the one you quoted and commented on, was exclusively about scum communication/collaboration, you told him (and still insist) he's wrong that the brig has no downside for town because of reasons that have nothing to do with the communication aspect, he replied to you, making his point crystal clear, and pointing out how you took his argument out of context... and I'm stretching? Not to mention that you didn't reply to him, nor to me why you didn't.

As for the second - if this isn't a clear example of taking things out of context, and twisting what I said, I don't know what is. Please point me to where exactly in my post did I say that. I said it's interesting that you didn't make the connection while otherwise pretty knowledgable about the series until he spelled it out, and were dead-set that he clearly implied to know that flubbucket was a town PR with his "I have an idea who he is flavourwise".

I stand by my point that these are another two cases of misrepresentation on your part.

Anyway, you can argue whatever you want after this (I only skimmed through your next post), I'm done replying to you; you've stretched whatever need there was to defend myself beyond any reasonable point. You're seriously distracting me from looking at the game state, and things that people have said (and done?) since the Day started. And I've started wondering if there isn't more behind it.

Moving on to other posts.

^ here's where Hypersomniac says that if Cristi had got 1 person away from a complete lunch, most likely he would avoid beung that person, despite everything he'd said previously about her cookery.