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Cyberpunk 2077Anybody who says CDPR pandering to social justice warriors are dead wrong an doesnt have a tiny clue about how the Cyberpunk universe works(206 posts) (206 posts) 
(206 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 09, 2020
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Yunipuma: Exactly my point! But your English is naturally more good at formulating it.
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devoras: Unfortunately with this one topic, for some strange reason, it doesn't seem to matter how good someone is at formulating the point. It's strange that this has even become a thing.

It's really as simple as looking at any other animal and asking the question - how do you know if it's male or female? Just apply that same line of thinking to ask if a human is male or female, it's really that simple. It's not a complicated concept, and yet here we are, large respected game companies are changing their games unnecessarily.
I very much appreciate making character creation work this way (ie like saints row), and I know I'm not the only one. It made me more interested in the game, even.
Post edited January 09, 2020 by lace_gardenia
Posted January 09, 2020
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devoras: Unfortunately with this one topic, for some strange reason, it doesn't seem to matter how good someone is at formulating the point. It's strange that this has even become a thing.

It's really as simple as looking at any other animal and asking the question - how do you know if it's male or female? Just apply that same line of thinking to ask if a human is male or female, it's really that simple. It's not a complicated concept, and yet here we are, large respected game companies are changing their games unnecessarily.
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lace_gardenia: I very much appreciate making character creation work this way (ie like saints row), and I know I'm not the only one. It made me more interested in the game, even.
Eh, it's not as bad as it could be, from what I've seen you are still picking a character who is clearly male or female. I think a better solution for everyone would be to allow you to pick what your character looks like, and then also give you the option to choose your gender. That way everyone wins, normal gendered people can, for example, pick male body/ male gender and not be affected in any way. Conversely a player could pick a male body/ female gender if they like.

That way it's adding options for people, instead of taking them away. There would be much less pushback against this idea than how they're handling it now. The core of the problem here is taking away the option to make a normal male or female character, if you let people do that; and then also add an option for those who appreciate that option, to make a character whose gender identity doesn't align with their body type, everyone can make who they want and everyone wins. I'm assuming that's the intention behind being 'inclusive', after all.
Post edited January 09, 2020 by devoras
Posted January 09, 2020
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lace_gardenia: I very much appreciate making character creation work this way (ie like saints row), and I know I'm not the only one. It made me more interested in the game, even.
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devoras: Eh, it's not as bad as it could be, from what I've seen you are still picking a character who is clearly male or female. I think a better solution for everyone would be to allow you to pick what your character looks like, and then also give you the option to choose your gender. That way everyone wins, normal gendered people can, for example, pick male body/ male gender and not be affected in any way. Conversely a player could pick a male body/ female gender if they like.
That's pretty much how it is right now. You pick your body type for the external features, which you can further modify i suppose, and then the way your character is acknowlegded by the NPCs by choosing the voice. It's not directly a gender slider, but that's pretty much how you choose the gender.
Post edited January 09, 2020 by xgribbelfix
Posted January 10, 2020
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devoras: Eh, it's not as bad as it could be, from what I've seen you are still picking a character who is clearly male or female. I think a better solution for everyone would be to allow you to pick what your character looks like, and then also give you the option to choose your gender. That way everyone wins, normal gendered people can, for example, pick male body/ male gender and not be affected in any way. Conversely a player could pick a male body/ female gender if they like.
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xgribbelfix: That's pretty much how it is right now. You pick your body type for the external features, which you can further modify i suppose, and then the way your character is acknowlegded by the NPCs by choosing the voice. It's not directly a gender slider, but that's pretty much how you choose the gender.
Well it's not as bad as it could be, but it's still not good. It's putting the cart before the horse. Being male leads to certain physical characteristics and a deeper voice, because one is male. The implication in the character creator is having certain physical characteristics and a deeper voice is what causes one to be male. It has that relationship backwards. Just choosing your physical body and your voice isn't fully sufficient to know whether your character is actually male, but if you know your character is male it's sufficient to know what your physical body and voice will be. Those are emergent properties that come about from being male.

What I'm asking for is the option to make a character that follows normal conventions, and whose physical characteristics and voice is dependent on the character's gender, instead of the character's gender being dependent on their physical characteristics and voice.
Posted January 10, 2020
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devoras: What I'm asking for is the option to make a character that follows normal conventions, and whose physical characteristics and voice is dependent on the character's gender, instead of the character's gender being dependent on their physical characteristics and voice.
But this is a clear violation of the rights and freedoms of our lace_gardenia! She will not be able to play this game if there is a traditional division into two sexes, because even on the Facebook already as many as 54 sexes have already been "recognized"! :)
Posted January 10, 2020
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devoras: That's still overcomplicating the issue to a silly degree.

Technically whether you're classified as a male or female of your species just depends on which reproductive cells you have to put towards the reproduction of your species, sperm or eggs. It's really that simple. Then your average, or common, physical characteristics are largely dependent on that, and on your species. For example, a female anglerfish is larger than a male one, or a male gorilla is larger than a female one. Those two examples aren't controversial statements, they're just the facts of reality for those species. You could, theoretically, have a female gorilla larger than a male(though I expect the chances of that are slim to the extreme) but that just means that particular gorilla is an outlier, it doesn't mean that one example is indicitive of all gorillas.

I've managed to get through many many years of life by just using my eyes and ears to identify others. Of course you will have outliers that are further away from the average, but by and large it's pretty easy to identify whether someone is male or female just by looking at them.
Of course, it is overcomplicating things. I'm all in favour of using common sense instead, but we now live in a world in which common sense holds no sway whatsoever. Can a large male angler fish or a small male gorilla be deemed a female? No, of course not.
But that's exactly the way some humans have started behaving. We can no longer rely on common sense, so what then? Suddenly there must be clear, unambiguous tests for everything, e.g. your sex is determined by the chromosomal composition of your cells, rather than what you have between your legs. That's how fucked up society has become.
Posted January 10, 2020
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devoras: What I'm asking for is the option to make a character that follows normal conventions, and whose physical characteristics and voice is dependent on the character's gender, instead of the character's gender being dependent on their physical characteristics and voice.
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Yunipuma: But this is a clear violation of the rights and freedoms of our lace_gardenia! She will not be able to play this game if there is a traditional division into two sexes, because even on the Facebook already as many as 54 sexes have already been "recognized"! :)
Good thing I don't have hay fever.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Wdzydze_strach.jpg/1200px-Wdzydze_strach.jpg

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devoras: That's still overcomplicating the issue to a silly degree.

Technically whether you're classified as a male or female of your species just depends on which reproductive cells you have to put towards the reproduction of your species, sperm or eggs. It's really that simple. Then your average, or common, physical characteristics are largely dependent on that, and on your species. For example, a female anglerfish is larger than a male one, or a male gorilla is larger than a female one. Those two examples aren't controversial statements, they're just the facts of reality for those species. You could, theoretically, have a female gorilla larger than a male(though I expect the chances of that are slim to the extreme) but that just means that particular gorilla is an outlier, it doesn't mean that one example is indicitive of all gorillas.

I've managed to get through many many years of life by just using my eyes and ears to identify others. Of course you will have outliers that are further away from the average, but by and large it's pretty easy to identify whether someone is male or female just by looking at them.
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cLaude83: Of course, it is overcomplicating things. I'm all in favour of using common sense instead, but we now live in a world in which common sense holds no sway whatsoever. Can a large male angler fish or a small male gorilla be deemed a female? No, of course not.
But that's exactly the way some humans have started behaving. We can no longer rely on common sense, so what then? Suddenly there must be clear, unambiguous tests for everything, e.g. your sex is determined by the chromosomal composition of your cells, rather than what you have between your legs. That's how fucked up society has become.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gn9A-kdsRo&feature=youtu.be&t=38
Post edited January 10, 2020 by lace_gardenia
Posted January 11, 2020
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Yunipuma: But this is a clear violation of the rights and freedoms of our lace_gardenia! She will not be able to play this game if there is a traditional division into two sexes, because even on the Facebook already as many as 54 sexes have already been "recognized"! :)
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lace_gardenia: Good thing I don't have hay fever.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Wdzydze_strach.jpg/1200px-Wdzydze_strach.jpg

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cLaude83: Of course, it is overcomplicating things. I'm all in favour of using common sense instead, but we now live in a world in which common sense holds no sway whatsoever. Can a large male angler fish or a small male gorilla be deemed a female? No, of course not.
But that's exactly the way some humans have started behaving. We can no longer rely on common sense, so what then? Suddenly there must be clear, unambiguous tests for everything, e.g. your sex is determined by the chromosomal composition of your cells, rather than what you have between your legs. That's how fucked up society has become.
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lace_gardenia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gn9A-kdsRo&feature=youtu.be&t=38
Uh-huh, you cried a river over me, did you? Colour me skeptical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my7sxZ0KfHU&t=2m25s
Posted January 11, 2020
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lace_gardenia: Good thing I don't have hay fever.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Wdzydze_strach.jpg/1200px-Wdzydze_strach.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gn9A-kdsRo&feature=youtu.be&t=38
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cLaude83: Uh-huh, you cried a river over me, did you? Colour me skeptical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my7sxZ0KfHU&t=2m25s
On the other hand, your song illustrates you nicely.
Post edited January 11, 2020 by lace_gardenia
Posted January 11, 2020
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cLaude83: Uh-huh, you cried a river over me, did you? Colour me skeptical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my7sxZ0KfHU&t=2m25s
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lace_gardenia: On the other hand, your song illustrates you nicely.
Imagine writing a post for God knows how long and then editing it for another 10 mins, and coming up with nothing better than " No u :) "... Damn son, that'll show me

Your endless tirade of self-owns are just to funny -- try again on this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLpeX4RRo28&t=1m4s
Posted January 11, 2020
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lace_gardenia: On the other hand, your song illustrates you nicely.
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cLaude83: Imagine writing a post for God knows how long and then editing it for another 10 mins, and coming up with nothing better than " No u :) "... Damn son, that'll show me

Your endless tirade of self-owns are just to funny -- try again on this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLpeX4RRo28&t=1m4s
You certainly talk a lot about how much you totally won.
Posted January 11, 2020
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cLaude83: Imagine writing a post for God knows how long and then editing it for another 10 mins, and coming up with nothing better than " No u :) "... Damn son, that'll show me

Your endless tirade of self-owns are just to funny -- try again on this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLpeX4RRo28&t=1m4s
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lace_gardenia: You certainly talk a lot about how much you totally won.
Well, between the two of us I am certainly more of authority on that front xD

But you failed to make a funny about your song. Try again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dbR2JZmlWo
Posted January 11, 2020
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lace_gardenia: You certainly talk a lot about how much you totally won.
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cLaude83: Well, between the two of us I am certainly more of authority on that front xD

But you failed to make a funny about your song. Try again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dbR2JZmlWo
You do that - you need the practice.
Posted January 11, 2020
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cLaude83: Well, between the two of us I am certainly more of authority on that front xD

But you failed to make a funny about your song. Try again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dbR2JZmlWo
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lace_gardenia: You do that - you need the practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iOpUdsMeqM&t=11s
Posted January 11, 2020
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cLaude83: Of course, it is overcomplicating things. I'm all in favour of using common sense instead, but we now live in a world in which common sense holds no sway whatsoever. Can a large male angler fish or a small male gorilla be deemed a female? No, of course not.
But that's exactly the way some humans have started behaving. We can no longer rely on common sense, so what then? Suddenly there must be clear, unambiguous tests for everything, e.g. your sex is determined by the chromosomal composition of your cells, rather than what you have between your legs. That's how fucked up society has become.
Honestly that's still playing into their silly games. There's no need to further clarify sex with chromosomes and such, best to ignore them, subtly mock and make fun of the ridiculous ideas if they make too much noise to comfortably ignore, and leave it alone. The normal scientific definition of male or female is all we need.

This is really only a big problem online, and it's being magnified, nobody I've ever met in 'real life' has seriously believed that reality is subjective and that they can change reality with language because that's clearly absurd. It's the base idea of postmodernism that students are being indoctrinated with that's causing these sorts of problems, they will almost certainly grow out of it once they learn to think for themselves being in the real world for awhile. It's a fairly big problem online, in educational institutions, and in modern journalism, and to a lesser extent they're moving into HR positions in companies because that's all they're qualified to do with their useless social sciences degrees, but in society at large their ideas are largely, and rightly, ridiculed for being so absurd.

I just want the silliness to be optional in games so I don't have to deal with it. If someone wants there to be an option to pretend that gender is a social construct in a game that's fine, whatever makes them happy, as long as it's an option I have the option to ignore.

I say keep it simple in games, male or female selection, then on top of that add an option for people to choose a different gender than their sex if they want. We don't need to have all this controversy, it's an easy fix. Everyone can be free to enjoy entertainment as they like.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
Cyberpunk 2077Anybody who says CDPR pandering to social justice warriors are dead wrong an doesnt have a tiny clue about how the Cyberpunk universe works(206 posts) (206 posts) 
(206 posts)