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Pangaea666: Was going through all the characters when trying to decide what skills to pour points into from the sniper and Rose, and noticed that the sniper has 1 less *attribute* points than the rest (Angela has 31 to the normal 29, for some reason). Figured maybe I messed it up somehow when swapping a few skill points around early in the game, but then opened up a fairly recent save, and there she had a free attribute point. So I wonder if the game has bugged out somehow. She is level 12, and isn't wearing anything that takes attribute points away. Have anybody else experienced something similar?

That oddity aside, I ended up giving the bonus attribute point to different areas for each character.
Brainiac: +1 Awareness
Bruiser: +1 Strength (it retroactively added the HP per level HP as well, which was nice)
Eagle-eyes: Missing the bonus point for some strange reason
Natalia: +1 Speed
Angela: Not there yet, need level 20 as she started higher than the rest
Rose: +1 Coordination
Scotchmo: +1 Intelligence

Ralphy was a bit useless, so took on Scotchmo, and then later Chisel offered to join. Tough choice between him and Scotchmo, but I went with the drunkard in the end. Hopefully somebody more capable wants to join later down the line, as shotguns don't fit the way I play due to their lack of range. He's amusing though. So far I've done AG Centre, Nomad Rails, plus assorted mini-areas, and have just finished Prison Valley, ready to move into the main area, presumably.

So glad I purchased the Pullpup sniper rifle - she's a menace now - and the M16 for Bruiser was a good choice too. Unlike many other similar games, you're not drowned in great weapons through loot, at least so far, so it has been better to buy good weapons when available, and melt down the rest.

Also glad I put Leadership on the main character. The sidekicks are much more stable now, and will only run into the middle of combat on the odd occasion. Why she would run up like that without even firing a shot.... AIs are always a bit wonky I guess *shrug*
That's weird on that attribute point. Must be a glitch, as I haven't seen that happen before.

Ralphy can be okay if you skill him as your Toaster guy and maybe start pouring points into a ranged weapon. You need to raise his INT by 1 when he hits level 10 though. His biggest drawback is the pathetic action points he has (7). I took him for a quite a stretch in one of my earlier 'learn the game' runs and gave him a ranged weapon. Worked out okay. In my latest run, i took him through almost all of Arizona with me and just kept pumping his Brawling skills. When he connected, he did decent damage, but generally he never got to engage, since I pretty much killed all the enemies from range with my other Rangers before he got close enough to do anything.

Leadership is very nice to keep the stupid at a minimum.

I'm currently starting a new run with a team of 3 'Joe Averages'. Two of my Rangers have 4s across the board, and the other has 4 everywhere except I dropped Awareness to 2 and raised Luck and CHA to 5. Just going to see how these Rangers fare with all having good CHA and Luck. I plan on grabbing Rook as well as Vulture's Cry, Pizepi, and rolling with Angela for a while. I'll probably switch her out for Ralphy once I locate a bunch of toasters.

I also have to finish my latest run, where my team is just about to enter Hollywood.
You get free attribute points sometimes from shrines, quests, etc.
Only thing I can think of that may have gone awry, is that I added some skill points at some point, and then cancelled it again, with the game asking me whether to save or not (I hadn't clicked the Commit button). Perhaps this was done with the sniper, and when cancelling it, the free attribute point was not restored. Guess I can just add it in that program you linked to, though.

The charisma/intelligence leader I have also only have 7 action points.But after raising Awereness, he has an overwhelming 8 combat initiative now :D He barely ever does anything, and after picking up a bag that lowered his combat speed by 1.0, he can barely move at all now.

How much does really Luck affect situations? I assume you get more 'free' AP in combat and CON on level-up, but is there more to it? Can you for instance open up safes or whatnot with low odds with fewer than expected Failures?

Charisma tends to be a dumping stat in most RPGs, but I really see the benefit in it here, due to the extra XP. There is already a pretty big difference in my characters by now, and that's without the 10 CHA bloke doing anything else like safes or traps. It quickly adds up, and he has around 30% more XP than the other created Rangers. One character keeps up okay, because she has traps, locks and safes duty. Still, she has about 12000 to his 13300 XP. The other two have ~10500.

Probably not the best idea to max it out, as I did with him, as you lose too much capability elsewhere, but some points into Charisma can certainly add up through quicker levelling.

Fair point on Toaster for Ralphy, and I still don't have a Toaster guy (only level 2 for Bruiser, and that was a mistake in truth). But we already only have three capable fighters out of 7, and adding him wouldn't change that - probably worsen it in the short to medium future. Are there many toasters in the game btw? I've only come across something like three so far.
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drealmer7: You get free attribute points sometimes from shrines, quests, etc.
I don't recall ever getting any attribute points from shrines or quests. Skill points and XP, yes, but not attribute points.

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Pangaea666: Only thing I can think of that may have gone awry, is that I added some skill points at some point, and then cancelled it again, with the game asking me whether to save or not (I hadn't clicked the Commit button). Perhaps this was done with the sniper, and when cancelling it, the free attribute point was not restored. Guess I can just add it in that program you linked to, though.
Yeah, you can easily add it with the editor. I've cancelled level ups and not had issues, but it's certainly possible that it could have glitched on you.

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Pangaea666: How much does really Luck affect situations? I assume you get more 'free' AP in combat and CON on level-up, but is there more to it? Can you for instance open up safes or whatnot with low odds with fewer than expected Failures?
No idea. One of the reasons I'm going with a group that all have some Luck points is to see if I notice a difference.

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Pangaea666: Charisma tends to be a dumping stat in most RPGs, but I really see the benefit in it here, due to the extra XP. There is already a pretty big difference in my characters by now, and that's without the 10 CHA bloke doing anything else like safes or traps. It quickly adds up, and he has around 30% more XP than the other created Rangers. One character keeps up okay, because she has traps, locks and safes duty. Still, she has about 12000 to his 13300 XP. The other two have ~10500.

Probably not the best idea to max it out, as I did with him, as you lose too much capability elsewhere, but some points into Charisma can certainly add up through quicker levelling.
Yeah, I like that it has more uses than just "Hey, I'm good looking, so tell me your secrets". Probably still not compelling enough to make min/maxers (I'm notorious for doing this) hesitate from using it as a dump stat, but it's at least got more uses than in most games.

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Pangaea666: Fair point on Toaster for Ralphy, and I still don't have a Toaster guy (only level 2 for Bruiser, and that was a mistake in truth). But we already only have three capable fighters out of 7, and adding him wouldn't change that - probably worsen it in the short to medium future. Are there many toasters in the game btw? I've only come across something like three so far.
One way I used him was as a 'toaster repairman for hire'. I just found the toasters and made note of where they were, then went back to Ranger Citadel, grabbed Ralphy and took him to them so he could repair them all. If he didn't have enough ranks, I took him on a few treks to get some random encounters so he could get some levels and then used the skill points to raise his Toaster Repair. Cheap metagaming, but there you go. :P

Yeah, there are actually a fair number of toasters throughout the game. Enough to make it worthwhile having the skill on one of your crew.
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Pangaea666: How much does really Luck affect situations? I assume you get more 'free' AP in combat and CON on level-up, but is there more to it? Can you for instance open up safes or whatnot with low odds with fewer than expected Failures?
Everything, for avoiding that dangerous hit from the giant ubber-super-utla robot with the laser motor sierra, for getting stable after got below 0 HP, for giving more critical hits. And even, the percentage of success with the other skills.
I'm not sure if helps against jamming but probably

Charisma tends to be a dumping stat in most RPGs, but I really see the benefit in it here, due to the extra XP. There is already a pretty big difference in my characters by now, and that's without the 10 CHA bloke doing anything else like safes or traps. It quickly adds up, and he has around 30% more XP than the other created Rangers. One character keeps up okay, because she has traps, locks and safes duty. Still, she has about 12000 to his 13300 XP. The other two have ~10500.
I think is already told in this topic, the party charisma total will define who you can recruit, if you max one single PC and drop in all the other guys, probably you will lost some NPCs (The sum need be higher than 30 for at least one NPC).


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Pangaea666: Fair point on Toaster for Ralphy, and I still don't have a Toaster guy (only level 2 for Bruiser, and that was a mistake in truth). But we already only have three capable fighters out of 7, and adding him wouldn't change that - probably worsen it in the short to medium future. Are there many toasters in the game btw? I've only come across something like three so far.
There is a lot of them, and the special items are funny (They are not vital), but you need to have in the key moment. At my first play, I didn't get the chances to uses 6 of those items.
Also glad I put Leadership on the main character. The sidekicks are much more stable now, and will only run into the middle of combat on the odd occasion. Why she would run up like that without even firing a shot.... AIs are always a bit wonky I guess *shrug*
Leadership helps too with the aim, which in turn translate to increases your chance of critical hits on combats. For me, is one of the best skills to max and transform the assault rifles and snipers users in dangerous creatures (Is +10% to hit, plus the prone mode you has +20% to the critical, after you has 6 or more in those weapons, the criticals are above 80% of success in plain terrain).
Thanks guys. I've sent a detailed bug report to inXile, so hopefully it will be improved if this is an issue. I managed to reproduce it once, but not again despite many attempts. I'll add it back with the editor and cross my fingers it goes well. Not too keen on replaying 5+ hours :|

It actually looks like the attribute system is fairly balanced in this game. Probably still geared towards fighting given the amount of it occurring, but there are also clear benefits to intelligence, charisma, and also apparently luck.

The weapon system perhaps leaves something to be desired, but overall the skill system looks allright too. The one skill that looks close to useless is Barter. A 10% swing on sales and purchases after spending 44 skill points isn't worth it, not when there are so many other good ones, and money doesn't appear to be an issue.

Leadership is strong, I agree, and perhaps that is why they appear to have scaled it down. The in-game description says +2% accuracy per level, but the actual effect appears to be 1% - at least by hovering over that special icon during combat.

Combined my party is very low on charisma, as I dumped it on the other 3 created Rangers, and Rose, Angela and Scotchmo don't exactly tilt it positively either :D Guess that/those NPCs will be for possibly later saves.

When I come up against those giant ubber-super-utla robots, I'm sure I can just start ranting about how unfair life is, and eventually they'll suicide... Right? =)

Btw, is there a trick to multi-quoting here, or are you editing the replies so thoroughly manually? That is what I am doing (albeit not now), but it is a bit of a PITA.
just hit reply to the one you want to respond to...respond...then hit reply to the next one you want to respond to and it will add it to the already created window

A note on luck: I am pretty convinced it helps with crit. successes. More often than what I consider normal I'm doing a hard or medium attempt at something and crit. success.
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Pangaea666: Leadership is strong, I agree, and perhaps that is why they appear to have scaled it down. The in-game description says +2% accuracy per level, but the actual effect appears to be 1% - at least by hovering over that special icon during combat.
You're correct. The in-game description is erroneous and it gives only 1% per rank.

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Pangaea666: Combined my party is very low on charisma, as I dumped it on the other 3 created Rangers, and Rose, Angela and Scotchmo don't exactly tilt it positively either :D Guess that/those NPCs will be for possibly later saves.
I've run into a couple that require high overall party CHA. One is around 20, and I think the other is even higher.

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Pangaea666: Btw, is there a trick to multi-quoting here, or are you editing the replies so thoroughly manually? That is what I am doing (albeit not now), but it is a bit of a PITA.
As Drealmer7 noted, if you're quoting multiple people, it will add it automatically to your post if it's within 10 minuted of posting or if no one else posts in the meantime. For multiple quotes from the same post, like I'm doing in this one, I do it manually. I don't think there's an easier way.
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Pangaea666: The weapon system perhaps leaves something to be desired, but overall the skill system looks allright too. The one skill that looks close to useless is Barter. A 10% swing on sales and purchases after spending 44 skill points isn't worth it, not when there are so many other good ones, and money doesn't appear to be an issue.
For me is not exactly trash, after the half of the game, you will need a lot of Ammo, by the way, this is finite (VERY Big amount, but finite). And the bests armor need to be bought and are very, very expansive. You could, in theory, be killing in the plain fields for getting the money, but after the half of the game, will be very risky.

Other thing, the grenades and launchers are finite, and the most common places for getting them are the stores, and again, are expansive. So, 5% or 10% helps a lot, at least for me. I bought all the grenades and launchers from the stores and they helped me a lot in the lasts battles and each time 3 or more bad guys were in the range of them, and I spent all my money.
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Belsirk: For me is not exactly trash, after the half of the game, you will need a lot of Ammo, by the way, this is finite (VERY Big amount, but finite). And the bests armor need to be bought and are very, very expansive. You could, in theory, be killing in the plain fields for getting the money, but after the half of the game, will be very risky.

Other thing, the grenades and launchers are finite, and the most common places for getting them are the stores, and again, are expansive. So, 5% or 10% helps a lot, at least for me. I bought all the grenades and launchers from the stores and they helped me a lot in the lasts battles and each time 3 or more bad guys were in the range of them, and I spent all my money.
I wonder if the difficulty setting has any impact on the ammo availability. What difficulty setting were you playing? I've been playing on Ranger setting and never found ammo an issue, except at the very beginning, and that was only due to limited funds. After doing the Radio Tower, money isn't an issue. And ammo never is, and this was with 5 of my 7 Rangers all using the same ammo type.

As for armor, it's practically useless in this game. Again, at the very beginning it's effective for a short time. But it soon comes to the point where the enemies are using weapons that bypass your armor anyway. I played through the entire game twice with my Rangers wearing no armor whatsoever. Sure, a couple times one went down and had to be mended back to health by the Surgeon, but that was rare and it's not like med supplies are scarce either.
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drealmer7: just hit reply to the one you want to respond to...respond...then hit reply to the next one you want to respond to and it will add it to the already created window

A note on luck: I am pretty convinced it helps with crit. successes. More often than what I consider normal I'm doing a hard or medium attempt at something and crit. success.
Unfortunately that doesn't work for me. I just tried again, and this is why I stopped trying before. I quote and write something, then hit the Reply button to another post to write a reply to that, but the forum software removes everything I've written and all that is left is the new quote tags with the other post. The first post is gone. Stupid.

I've not bought a lot of ammo so far, but needed 9mm bulletts for a FFS pistol (neet name!) and we hadn't found that anywhere. Good to know it's finite though, because I thought it got resupplied every now and then. I've started to love granades, pipe bombs and manglers, but if they're finite, it's probably better to stop using them against a bunch of honey badgers and such. Tough bastards though!

Tried to get into the prison btw, but it wouldn't let me, or I didn't find a way past certain 'things'. Noticed the log said we perhaps needed more skill and experience, so maybe it's the game's way of saying "There is NO WAY you'll survive in there right now, get grinding, son"?
Grinding is certainly not needed. You are able to gain more than enough XP doing quests and encounters to be able to do the things needed as the game progresses. I've never even done random enemy encounters, either, I always skip them.
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Pangaea666: Tried to get into the prison btw, but it wouldn't let me, or I didn't find a way past certain 'things'. Noticed the log said we perhaps needed more skill and experience, so maybe it's the game's way of saying "There is NO WAY you'll survive in there right now, get grinding, son"?
Just keep following along with the story. You'll get a chance to come back to the prison and finish that area later. Don't want to spoil things, so just keep going with the game. You won't miss going back to the prison when the time comes.
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Pangaea666: Unfortunately that doesn't work for me. I just tried again, and this is why I stopped trying before. I quote and write something, then hit the Reply button to another post to write a reply to that, but the forum software removes everything I've written and all that is left is the new quote tags with the other post. The first post is gone. Stupid.
Not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying, but it appears you're trying to post a reply, then immediately quote another post to reply to. That's not what we meant. Post your first reply (so write it out and hit the 'Reply' button so it posts the reply in the thread). Then reply to the next post. The forum software will automatically add your second reply to your previous one as long it's not longer than 10 minutes or someone hasn't posted before you try posting the subsequent reply.
Post edited October 31, 2014 by Coelocanth
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Coelocanth: I wonder if the difficulty setting has any impact on the ammo availability. What difficulty setting were you playing? I've been playing on Ranger setting and never found ammo an issue, except at the very beginning, and that was only due to limited funds. After doing the Radio Tower, money isn't an issue. And ammo never is, and this was with 5 of my 7 Rangers all using the same ammo type.
We played at the same difficult, maybe I'm too paranoid, as less than 100 bullets is too little for me for any mission (that is why I increase the strength of my characters), there is enough bullets for one session, but they are finite

As for armor, it's practically useless in this game. Again, at the very beginning it's effective for a short time. But it soon comes to the point where the enemies are using weapons that bypass your armor anyway. I played through the entire game twice with my Rangers wearing no armor whatsoever. Sure, a couple times one went down and had to be mended back to health by the Surgeon, but that was rare and it's not like med supplies are scarce either.
Not sure, SPOILER: Once you reach Hollwyood, the best armor penetration is 8, so, the power armor and the chittin armor (9 and 10) will reduce damage. Only the messa cannons (laser) and the Skorpion V2 have a armor penetration of 10, or at least I remember that, I could be wrong.
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drealmer7: Grinding is certainly not needed. You are able to gain more than enough XP doing quests and encounters to be able to do the things needed as the game progresses. I've never even done random enemy encounters, either, I always skip them.
I always try to skip them as well, but without many points into Outdoorsman, it works too rarely for my liking. It's a drag having to spend bullets on them.
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Coelocanth: Just keep following along with the story. You'll get a chance to come back to the prison and finish that area later. Don't want to spoil things, so just keep going with the game. You won't miss going back to the prison when the time comes.
I've followed the story more now, I just happened to do things in a way that wasn't intended, I guess. Now scratching my head trying to choose between two groups. Both seem pretty damn wacko.

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Coelocanth: Not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying, but it appears you're trying to post a reply, then immediately quote another post to reply to. That's not what we meant. Post your first reply (so write it out and hit the 'Reply' button so it posts the reply in the thread). Then reply to the next post. The forum software will automatically add your second reply to your previous one as long it's not longer than 10 minutes or someone hasn't posted before you try posting the subsequent reply.
You understood me correctly. Figured that was how it worked, as that is how it works on many forums. Unfortunately this one is rather basic. This post should now get amended to the last one, though...

Oh, and while I'm writing here, re:bullets, I've had to stop picking up more stuff as we can't lug it around any more. Sometimes still pick up bullets from loot, but most other stuff we're leaving behind. That's the downside to a fairly strength-weak party I suppose.
Post edited October 31, 2014 by Pangaea666