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Xelran: Also I'm still unsure if I Would still be using Fighting defensively on Valerie despite her Bard build not having crane feats?
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InEffect: Depending on enemy AB. Also depends on how many enemies are nauseated or disabled otherwise.
Okay thank you. I guess I will have to make the call myself then and experiment.

I have one last question for today.

I saw you recommending Leopard in a different Sorc build as being better in endgame. How much more suffering would it be and when would Leopard overtake Smilodon in power? I googled a bit and saw that Smilodon has better synergy with buffs apparently in late game?


Thank you very much for all your help. Without you I would enjoy this game much less.
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InEffect: Depending on enemy AB. Also depends on how many enemies are nauseated or disabled otherwise.
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Xelran: Okay thank you. I guess I will have to make the call myself then and experiment.

I have one last question for today.

I saw you recommending Leopard in a different Sorc build as being better in endgame. How much more suffering would it be and when would Leopard overtake Smilodon in power? I googled a bit and saw that Smilodon has better synergy with buffs apparently in late game?

Thank you very much for all your help. Without you I would enjoy this game much less.
leopard is better for melee-heavy parties as it takes less space. Otherwise they are roughly the same with smilodon being more damage and leopard having a tiny bit of utility and less annoying size.
By leate-game the pet is mostly irrelevant as he can't compete with enemies present. Still can dish out some damage on disabled targets, so that should count for something.
Post edited May 31, 2019 by InEffect
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Rapsdjfff: InEffect, do you think that virtually all Str. based melee builds should aim for some form of trip/bite stacking to increase DPS and gain extra attacks of opportunity? I'm thinking of your Saint Vivisector specifically. Might he not be stronger as SS17/Vivi 2/Monk 1 using either the Serpent Prince Fauchard for better damage than Lion's Claw or Mastery Fauchard in the end game?
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InEffect: If I were to cut saint levels I'd sooner think of a way to ramp damage. Fauchard is no better than Falcata. Even if you do get a bit of damage from legendary it's not substantial(and not nearly as good as x4 lion's claw crits). So if you consider damage I'd sooner cut Saint levels to 15 and added more vivisectionist, cut human, went motherless and trip/bite. Something like saint15/M2/V3. I don't think it offers enough to cut the saint levels, though. V2 could add bite, but what for? Saint doesn't have spare feats for trip. It's far better to get another +1enchant and another arcana, imo
Yeah, I guess you're right. On another point, which of your builds are best suited for solo on unfair? What would you say are the top 3 builds for soloing without Heart of Ira or fog cheese?
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InEffect: If I were to cut saint levels I'd sooner think of a way to ramp damage. Fauchard is no better than Falcata. Even if you do get a bit of damage from legendary it's not substantial(and not nearly as good as x4 lion's claw crits). So if you consider damage I'd sooner cut Saint levels to 15 and added more vivisectionist, cut human, went motherless and trip/bite. Something like saint15/M2/V3. I don't think it offers enough to cut the saint levels, though. V2 could add bite, but what for? Saint doesn't have spare feats for trip. It's far better to get another +1enchant and another arcana, imo
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Rapsdjfff: Yeah, I guess you're right. On another point, which of your builds are best suited for solo on unfair? What would you say are the top 3 builds for soloing without Heart of Ira or fog cheese?
Both kineticists will do fine, although monk one will have to go fire first. General plan is to get 12 and abuse the hell out of wall and and deadly earth. Free achievements.
Sylvan sorc in human variation
Trip Vivi will probably do alright once you get him rolling, but will have to use summon scrolls a lot and cut some team feats.
Both saint and dex scion are capable, although as per usual for melee getting early levels is pure suffer. Saint is bit easier as he gets his damage ramp faster.
Although not listed, Scaled1/Sorc5/DD4/EK10 is capable of rolling unfair as well. I need to write it down, but don't want to waste time as I don't know what will be changed/fixed/added in EE and DLC. Pretty much a standard melee build with spells attached. Would use vanquisher.
Pure class druid can do it too, as you just kite mobs around spiky bits with your pet early and abuse the hell out of creeping doom late.

All of them would need to be tweaked a tiny bit to have more skill-points and enough perception for the pesky dragon lair if you go solo, but that's not too hard. As usual, Kineticist needs to tweak jack all, except for stats, cause he has enough spare feats to take both persuasive and skill focus: perception. #niceclass
Post edited May 31, 2019 by InEffect
Will the new patch break any of your builds?
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Xelran: Will the new patch break any of your builds?
We'll learn that in about 5 days. Main question would be if they fix crane wing and a few other things. Nothing too important should break, but who knows?
Also we don't know what character options will be in EE apart from already hinted ones, don't know what new gear is and don't know what character options/gear will be in final DLC.
Post edited June 01, 2019 by InEffect
Q: Is there any point in bringing a pure sorcerer in this game over a grenadier, really? As a grenadier you have superior control with choking bombs/tanglefoot and damage with well bombs. Both are touch AC. Obviously the party would have a bard and a second source of haste, e.g. dex scion. Seems overrated.
Post edited June 02, 2019 by andvaare
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andvaare: Q: Is there any point in bringing a pure sorcerer in this game over a grenadier, really? As a grenadier you have superior control with choking bombs/tanglefoot and damage with well bombs. Both are touch AC. Obviously the party would have a bard and a second source of haste, e.g. dex scion. Seems overrated.
Stinking clouds, pretty much. They are better than whatever grenadier can do in that department because it's a lot of checks for just 1 cast. And late-game they get stormbolts and stuff.
Grenadiers are fine in a sense of being able to go nova early while arcane casters are pure support/control, but when it comes to specialized CC it's arcane casters all the way.
There is an elephant in the room called kineticist that does everything better than anyone, but we don't talk about those here.
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andvaare: Q: Is there any point in bringing a pure sorcerer in this game over a grenadier, really? As a grenadier you have superior control with choking bombs/tanglefoot and damage with well bombs. Both are touch AC. Obviously the party would have a bard and a second source of haste, e.g. dex scion. Seems overrated.
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InEffect: Stinking clouds, pretty much. They are better than whatever grenadier can do in that department because it's a lot of checks for just 1 cast. And late-game they get stormbolts and stuff.
Grenadiers are fine in a sense of being able to go nova early while arcane casters are pure support/control, but when it comes to specialized CC it's arcane casters all the way.
There is an elephant in the room called kineticist that does everything better than anyone, but we don't talk about those here.
1. (tripping) Kineticist I don´t even wan´t to talk about since I consider it broken by design. I suppose the counter argument would be then to consider the design of (alchemist) grenadier and yeah. Perhaps any single class that you can take 20 levels of and be OP should be removed.
2. Stinking cloud. Consider the 3xbomb feat with choking bomb and cognatogen saves (against fort no less). I mean really.
Also note that we are talking about a pure sorcerer here. We would have some utility from bard/scion.
Post edited June 02, 2019 by andvaare
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InEffect: Stinking clouds, pretty much. They are better than whatever grenadier can do in that department because it's a lot of checks for just 1 cast. And late-game they get stormbolts and stuff.
Grenadiers are fine in a sense of being able to go nova early while arcane casters are pure support/control, but when it comes to specialized CC it's arcane casters all the way.
There is an elephant in the room called kineticist that does everything better than anyone, but we don't talk about those here.
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andvaare: 1. (tripping) Kineticist I don´t even wan´t to talk about since I consider it broken by design. I suppose the counter argument would be then to consider the design of (alchemist) grenadier and yeah. Perhaps any single class that you can take 20 levels of and be OP should be removed.
2. Stinking cloud. Consider the 3xbomb feat with choking bomb and cognatogen saves (against fort no less). I mean really.
Also note that we are talking about a pure sorcerer here. We would have some utility from bard/scion.
Well lets count sage sorc18/Vivisectionist2 cloud DC.
10base+9level
24int base+8hat+2ring+2bokken+4staff+4mutagen=44int/+17
+1ring
+2Foci
+2class
=41 fort DC max. Most things have little to no chance at all. And that thing forces a lot of checks every round, has larger AoE and stacks witg itself. And he has stormbolts and other goodies on top of that. Bonus points for using quicken wands to cast 2 clouds every round if need be. Also has mirror images to not die all the time.
Post edited June 02, 2019 by InEffect
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andvaare: 1. (tripping) Kineticist I don´t even wan´t to talk about since I consider it broken by design. I suppose the counter argument would be then to consider the design of (alchemist) grenadier and yeah. Perhaps any single class that you can take 20 levels of and be OP should be removed.
2. Stinking cloud. Consider the 3xbomb feat with choking bomb and cognatogen saves (against fort no less). I mean really.
Also note that we are talking about a pure sorcerer here. We would have some utility from bard/scion.
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InEffect: Well lets count sage sorc18/Vivisectionist2 cloud DC.
10base+9level
24int base+8hat+2ring+2bokken+4staff+4mutagen=44int/+17
+1ring
+2Foci
+2class
=41 fort DC max. Most things have little to no chance at all. And that thing forces a lot of checks every round, has larger AoE and stacks witg itself. And he has stormbolts and other goodies on top of that. Bonus points for using quicken wands to cast 2 clouds every round if need be. Also has mirror images to not die all the time.
grenadier20
10base+1/2*20cl=20
24int base+8hat+2ring+2bokken+4staff+8mutagen+2awakened=50int/+20
+1ring of circumstance
+2 (Bombthrovers gloves)
= 43 fort DC max at 4 bombs/round (5 with haste) with rapid shot (hits in small AoE around target).
Please correct me if I´m wrong
Edit: I´m getting 44 fort dc with 1 point I can´t account for. So 44 fort DC. Bug maybe


+ comes online sooner than sorcerer
- small aoe compared to sorcerer
+ stronger single target control (scales of #attacks) (for fast lockdown)
- have to be constantly attacking
+ has lockdown to fort immune with tanglefoot
+ has damage aplently
Post edited June 02, 2019 by andvaare
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andvaare: + comes online sooner than sorcerer
kinda. Although grease and glitterdust are pretty OP early tools.
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andvaare: - small aoe compared to sorcerer
+ stronger single target control (scales of #attacks) (for fast lockdown)
- have to be constantly attacking
yep
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andvaare: + has lockdown to fort immune with tanglefoot
Chains of light/vinetrap/pits.

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andvaare: + has damage aplently
Not AoE damage though. Nothing kills ghosts as fast as stormbolts with that +4DC Maximize+Empower rod.
I put my current playthrough on hold and will wait for EE since it's close.
Had a ton of fun with Sylvan Sorc and I will play her again on hard from the beginning with the EE. I really hope the EE won't break the build. If it does I would love for it to be updated.

That being said, I did download the beta to take a look at the new stuff and tried your Mad Dog build in a rush style on hard. And oh boy. The early game on hard was easier than challenging on Sorc. Despite having no Arcane caster CC for grease or the like. Starting with level 4 I had a bonus attack of 16 or 18 even? with group buffs. Also hitting for some decent early damage. I wish Amiri could be like that.

It's not something I would usually play on my main character mainly because I had no skills to press! Or will this change later? I couldn't find anything.
Also I picked the wolf on that character but it felt like a mistake. It seemed to have only one attack per round at low lvl compared to smilodon and leopard. I guess it's a lategame pick?

I might take this build instead of Amiri. Too bad I'll miss out on her amusing camping lines.

Also on your Regongar build: "Plate Armor(light till lvl7, medium till )" You forgot to add the number for medium!
Speaking of, I'm still trying to figure out this guy. He seems super squishy in low lvls. Even more so because of his Orc race trait where he survives another round. He ends up dead [too much -hp] every fight and I had to reload a ton.
Any tips to alleviate the early game pain on him?
Post edited June 04, 2019 by Xelran
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Xelran: I put my current playthrough on hold and will wait for EE since it's close.
Had a ton of fun with Sylvan Sorc and I will play her again on hard from the beginning with the EE. I really hope the EE won't break the build. If it does I would love for it to be updated.

That being said, I did download the beta to take a look at the new stuff and tried your Mad Dog build in a rush style on hard. And oh boy. The early game on hard was easier than challenging on Sorc. Despite having no Arcane caster CC for grease or the like. Starting with level 4 I had a bonus attack of 16 or 18 even? with group buffs. Also hitting for some decent early damage. I wish Amiri could be like that.

It's not something I would usually play on my main character mainly because I had no skills to press! Or will this change later? I couldn't find anything.
Also I picked the wolf on that character but it felt like a mistake. It seemed to have only one attack per round at low lvl compared to smilodon and leopard. I guess it's a lategame pick?

I might take this build instead of Amiri. Too bad I'll miss out on her amusing camping lines.

Also on your Regongar build: "Plate Armor(light till lvl7, medium till )" You forgot to add the number for medium!
Speaking of, I'm still trying to figure out this guy. He seems super squishy in low lvls. Even more so because of his Orc race trait where he survives another round. He ends up dead [too much -hp] every fight and I had to reload a ton.
Any tips to alleviate the early game pain on him?
Mad doge is pretty decent, although he does inevitably fall off i damage when compared to saint or trip vivi as most things do. Wolf/Dog are awesome when you don't need added CC more than damage. All things considered, dog has like 4CMB more than leopard does. Wolf is 1 less than that, but still decent and you don't have to edit game files to stop the awful scratching sounds. It all stems from the fact that pets damage will become insignificant rather fast and the build kinda wants the pet to trip things as often as possible.

I hate Amiri with passion. Feminist from a hunter/gatherer tribe. That's rich. She is also so self-centered and with an ego to fill a castle. At least the game acknowledges that and gives her a good roast later on, so there's that. The fact that she is the worst companion by a combination of stats and class doesn't help either. Jaethal builds into mad dog ok-ish. No sacred, but it's not so bad, all things considered.

Reggie must rely of mirror images to not drop dead at a moments notice. Or you can just give him a glaive till magus 7. He's bit of a late bloomer, true. I usually don't use him much as I prefer running a tanky MC and 3 front-liners is an overkill. His orcish thing is just a micro tax. It allows you more wiggle room to heal him before he drops dead. Once you get heart of valor it's not so bad. Also put him quite a bit behind val in the formation so he doesn't engage first.
Post edited June 04, 2019 by InEffect
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InEffect: ...
I guess Amiri can be hit or miss. I can see why you dislike her. I just really like her interaction with the other party member not necessarily herself.

I might really take your advice to heart and just go with tanky MC instead then. I just really wanted it to be a caster.
I'll miss my pet though. As mentioned before I guess I will go dex scion on my MC then. It's atleast some spell slinging.

Quick question, will you update the Octavia build anytime soon?[You marked it as to be redone] I know you rated her as meh but me going tanky means I won't have any Arcane Caster and there seems to be only 1 available companion that is exactly that.