Well for one, they can't do any of that even with their physical copies, as they're breaking the licence. It's the same thing as if you've logged in Steam on your friend's computer, put it to offline mode, and let him play your game ... Which you can do, by the way :-P At any rate, I've seen that argument about moding the games and modifying game files themselves, which you just ... Well, you can do that. I've even seen people saying you can't crack Steam games while you can crack CD-copies, which is just ridiculous.

Resale of games is not a violation of the licence, because the licence - be in the US or the majority of European countries - is not consistent with the law in this regard, and so such clauses are invalid. The first-sale doctrine in Europe and US forbid such resale bans of software sold on physical media (and in Europe, digitally sold software as well now, but that's another subject).

I agree that the idea that you cannot crack Steam is games is ridiculous though.

This is based on that recent court case that internet media went wild with? Because that was for a very specific case and a specific case of license. It's not an all out 'I can sell digital games now!' ruling.

No, it was for digitally distributed licences in general. The German Federal Consumer Rights Agency is not pursuing this case with Valve at a whim, you know.

From my understanding, folks use Steam because of the extra layer of bullshit, like achievements and social networking features it adds.

All I can perfectly live without. But I have a lot of games bought on deals, and Steam is quite powerful in that respect. Lots of deals every day to cater the crowd.

Link to the case?

The complaint text isn't online yet by the looks of it, but the VZBV has put an entire article explaining their case in German (I've tried running it through Google Translate for the benefit of the non-Germanophones out there, but it makes a pig's ear of it).

http://www.surfer-haben-rechte.de/cps/rde/xchg/digitalrechte/hs.xsl/75_2546.htm?back=index.htm&backtitle=Startseite

There's also an article on a lawyer's blog (Viola Lachenmann has done a lot on consumer rights and data protection legislation in the past, makes for interesting reading) that Google Translate makes at least halfway comprehensible.

http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fkanzlei-lachenmann.de%2Fklage-gegen-valve-durch-vzbv-wegen-steam-weiter-verkauf-von-software%2F

And there's a proper English-language summary here:

http://www.gameskinny.com/xa117/german-consumer-group-goes-toe-to-toe-with-valve

Seems Valve already had an early response to that too: Interesting that in the Oracle Court Case itself the judges at least saw the need to highlight that more DRM may be necessary (Since removal is required to be able to sell) . Although they just mentioned CD-Keys there.

Just FYI, Steam Fanboy or not, I think the idea of a Used Digital market for games is absolutely ridiculous. A Global 100% Transparent Market (Meaning it's instantly obvious when even a single used copy is for sale) with no delays between transfers (Tokyo to NY in the blink of an eye) and no risks and likely no extra costs (like delivery) is a level of used sales that's absolutely incomparable to what used sales on physical media are. It would mean 0 sales for the developer as long as there's even 1 second hand copy out there.

Touché.
I actually like Steam, and can't find any detracting factor. Of course, I not really into philosophical debates about DRM. But yes, Steam is convenient to the maximum.

Ridiculous because it really hasn't been done before. However what if it wasn't digital, would you find it "ridiculous" then?to be able to buy aphysical game, or a physical Blu-ray movie, and then sell them to someone when you're done and no longer want them?

It's merely "ridiculous" because digital sales of games or software is something that has never really been done or accepted by most digital retailers.

This is something the publishers LOVE, and most would love if you couldn't resale your used physical goods as well.

I can understand it from a publishers perspective, they have no used sales, and thus everyone that buys a game digitally is making money for them, instead of used sales where they see none of that money (Aside fromt he person who originally bought it).

However at the same time, it Irks me when digital games cost just as much as physical games, when they no longer have to make cds/game cases, ship boxes to stores, pay a cut of the sale to the storefront, etc. They make a LOT more off digital sales vs physical ones, and do they pass that savings to the customer? No, they pocket it all.

So a part of me would like to be able to resale some of my games that I no longer play.

Though a company like Cd Projekt,, that actually makes it worth it with the free enhanced edition upgrades and free DRM options, etc I wouldn't resale the game once I'm done, epsecially since I would like to reply most of them down the road.

Requoting my edited post above here since you replied early:

Just FYI, Steam Fanboy or not, I think the idea of a Used Digital market for games is absolutely ridiculous. A Global 100% Transparent Market (Meaning it's instantly obvious when even a single used copy is for sale) with no delays between transfers (Tokyo to NY in the blink of an eye) and no risks and likely no extra costs (like delivery) is a level of used sales that's absolutely incomparable to what used sales on physical media are. It would mean 0 sales for the developer as long as there's even 1 second hand copy out there.

Also, if GOG allowed/facilitated resale I'm sure there'd be plenty of sales happening here as well. You may not feel like you want to sell your copies but others will, heck I have a game or two I'd sell probably, maybe even more considering I found that some of the classic games just really don't lend well to replaying anymore for me.

To restate. It has nothing to do with considering the idea of digital resale 'ridiculous', ignoring that physical resale has been there. It's that I think the notion of a used digital market on a global scale is simply not feasible, or at the very least will lead to *massive* reforms in the way we either get games sold to us, pricing, sales etc, and quite likely the format we get them in as well (Far more focus on "free" games that sell stuff in game)

The thing is, if they did have reselling, Steam and other services would have to have some way to revoke/disable the game on your computer.

I understand what you mean, if you could resale a digital game, you assume you'd still have access to it, but no, if they did this they would definitely want to figure out a way to stop that.

Steam could remove the game from your account , and give the key/license to whomever you sell it to.

This way it works like traditional reselling of physical goods, where you sell your copy, and you then no longer have it. Thus the goods are transferred and you aren't just "making a copy" to give to someone else, that wouldn't be the same.

I think the point Pheace was trying to make is that reselling physical goods takes money, time, and is inconvenient, which doesn't apply to digital goods, that never go bad, are transferred instantly and for free etc. Theoretically, a single person in a world would need to buy a singleplayer game that he'd then resell to everyone else - long story short, digital resales would probably be a massive hit to actual sales as there's absolutely no risk involved.

And then there's another point that a certain person has made when I was talking to him recently: When you can resell your stuff, publishers are trying to make games with a lot of longelivity, which in turns leads to tacked-on multiplayer and generally market tends to abandon quality SP games as MP are just more profitable. Sure, it's a natural development, but not really one I like.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my argument.

I'm saying that a used Digital sales market on a global scale will be detrimental because:

A) No Degradation. Digital products remain the same, there's no loss here. The used product is exactly the same as the new thing.
B) No risks assuming Steam handles it, no extra costs for transport from point A to B, no delay if you want to get a game from Tokyo yet are living in NY.
C) 100% Transparancy. With Steam or similar website that means that *every single* used copy that is available, anywhere in the world, will be visible to people buying.

There is no reason not to buy the used copy because A) and B) guarantee it is the same as buying the new product, and because of C), as long as there is even 1 used copy for sale, anywhere in the world (!), the developers won't be getting any sales. Because a used copy will by default be priced lower.

This is absolutely incomparable to physical used markets which are often limited in scale, limited by region, awareness, cost, time delays, risk, quality concerns etc.