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jodaniel3: Actually, they would only need to make 2 versions.. steam version and DRM-Free.
Yeah, it's as simple as only making and keeping up with 2 versions during creation and ongoing development. The question is how much extra time that takes to do.
Post edited April 11, 2013 by Pheace
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jodaniel3: Actually, they would only need to make 2 versions.. steam version and DRM-Free.
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Pheace: Yeah, I'm sure it's as simple as "only" making and keeping up with 2 versions during creation and ongoing development.
Let's be honest here, if it was really that hard would games like Legend of Grimrock, Anodyne, and many other indies be on so many different sites?
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jodaniel3: Let's be honest here, if it was really that hard would games like Legend of Grimrock, Anodyne, and many other indies be on so many different sites?
Ah, did any of those go with both Steamworks and DRM-free from the start?
nwm
Post edited April 11, 2013 by amok
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jodaniel3: Let's be honest here, if it was really that hard would games like Legend of Grimrock, Anodyne, and many other indies be on so many different sites?
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Pheace: Ah, did any of those go with both Steamworks and DRM-free from the start?
I get what you're implying, that having 2 different versions can be too much work, but it doesn't matter. The point of this entire thread is that they're trying to weasel out of a DRM-free version. I have given you a solution to what they're implying, which is that a DRM free version seems like too much of a hassle. I have given alternatives that would make their lives so much easier. And with that, I'm going to bed.

And to answer you're question, quite a few of them did. FTL is a prime example, and that was made by only 2 guys.
Post edited April 11, 2013 by jodaniel3
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htown1980: "will be unable to browse and play community-created stories from within the game. Any future DLC will only be available through Steam".
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Point Man: This is exactly what i thought too.
It has to be a way to disguise their DRM. DRM free is crippled, so people will have to buy the DRM ridden Steam version if they want the full experience.
This is my interpretation of that quote, without actually knowing anything about the game or the developers.

To be able to browse mods in-game, the game has to have the knowledge where exactly to look for the mods. You cannot just tell a game to go to www.nexusmods.com and download the mods from there, because the game has no clue how to accomplish this. There needs to be a defined protocol to search for the mods, there needs to be a defined way how the mods are packaged so they can be installed in-game, there needs to be a defined way how the updates are handled and so on. And Steam workshop probably has these defined ways. Thus Steam is required for the in-game mod browser.

BUT! It doesn't mean that mods cannot be installed OUTSIDE of the game. If you think about how mods are usually handled, you just put some files in a certain place and It Works. I would expect this game to work in a similar way, because it's such a simple mechanism.

So to me that quote is telling that no in-game mod browser for DRM-free, but mods will still work.
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Pheace: Ah, did any of those go with both Steamworks and DRM-free from the start?
Doubtful, considering that Steamworks age can currently be measured in weeks. That said, Dungeon Defenders has DLC, mod support, Steamworks support, and utilizes all the shiny bits that Steam offers, yet still was able to offer a DRM-free version for the last major Humble Indie Bundle.

And then there's Beat Hazard Ultra, which was recently released on Humble Bundle DRM-free, alongside a DRM-free apk for Android despite it's long existence on Steam and other closed markets.

Then there's Braid, Legend of Grimrock, Torchlight (the first one), SpaceChem, Super Meat Boy, Uplink... all have mod support, DRM-free releases and purchase options on Steam.

And all of those games had a budget far smaller than the income Harebrained made off of Shadowrun Returns' Kickstarter.
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htown1980: I don't understand why DLC can't just be in the form of an executable that you can download and modifies the program files (like some of the olden days expansions)
Exactly; that's what I was trying to say, you just said it better.
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Pheace: Ah, did any of those go with both Steamworks and DRM-free from the start?
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Decivre: Doubtful, considering that Steamworks age can currently be measured in weeks. That said, Dungeon Defenders has DLC, mod support, Steamworks support, and utilizes all the shiny bits that Steam offers, yet still was able to offer a DRM-free version for the last major Humble Indie Bundle.
That's one download for the pack? You can not do the base game and individual DLC's, so it same as having a GotY edition, or complete edition. No-one is saying shadowrun returns will not be doing this in the future. The focus now is on the DLC's as and when they are made.
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singbird: So to me that quote is telling that no in-game mod browser for DRM-free, but mods will still work.
I hope so, but if that is the case, I don't understand why they haven't clarified that already...
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DieRuhe: Exactly; that's what I was trying to say, you just said it better.
thanks :)
Post edited April 11, 2013 by htown1980
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singbird: So to me that quote is telling that no in-game mod browser for DRM-free, but mods will still work.
That's basically been my own assumption all along. The mod issue isn't really that much of a disaster, because at the end of the day, I think it's likely that modding efforts for the DRM-free version will be handled by the wider community anyway. If Harebrained's reference was to the fact that the DRM-free version is unable to use Steam Workshop, well...duh. I think even the most Steam-sceptical of us understand that this is entirely logical.

That being said, if Harebrained has chosen to specifically cripple the DRM-free version to make modding impossible, then I think this is going to come back to bite them on the ass very hard.
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singbird: So to me that quote is telling that no in-game mod browser for DRM-free, but mods will still work.
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jamyskis: That's basically been my own assumption all along. The mod issue isn't really that much of a disaster, because at the end of the day, I think it's likely that modding efforts for the DRM-free version will be handled by the wider community anyway. If Harebrained's reference was to the fact that the DRM-free version is unable to use Steam Workshop, well...duh. I think even the most Steam-sceptical of us understand that this is entirely logical.

That being said, if Harebrained has chosen to specifically cripple the DRM-free version to make modding impossible, then I think this is going to come back to bite them on the ass very hard.
That's part of why the prospect of Steam-only DLC is controversial: it implies any mods that depend on that DLC also won't ever run on the non-Steam version of the game.
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amok: That's one download for the pack? You can not do the base game and individual DLC's, so it same as having a GotY edition, or complete edition. No-one is saying shadowrun returns will not be doing this in the future. The focus now is on the DLC's as and when they are made.
First off, the concept of the expansion pack wasn't exactly invented recently, so the idea of releasing an install that adds and edits already-existing files isn't particularly new. And considering that the recent announcement all but states that this is exactly how they're releasing the DRM-free version of the Berlin DLC, it's clear that DRM-free DLC is possible. And I don't see why Humble Bundle would be against someone releasing it under their market.
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amok: That's one download for the pack? You can not do the base game and individual DLC's, so it same as having a GotY edition, or complete edition. No-one is saying shadowrun returns will not be doing this in the future. The focus now is on the DLC's as and when they are made.
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Decivre: First off, the concept of the expansion pack wasn't exactly invented recently, so the idea of releasing an install that adds and edits already-existing files isn't particularly new. And considering that the recent announcement all but states that this is exactly how they're releasing the DRM-free version of the Berlin DLC, it's clear that DRM-free DLC is possible. And I don't see why Humble Bundle would be against someone releasing it under their market.
I was just responding to your example that HS have Dungeons Defenders and DLC's... when they don't... They have a complete DD pack. AFAIK HS do not sell any DLC's at all... do they?
I try to see the positive side:
It used to be that all gamers thought that developers are awesome nice people cowering in the shadow of evil publishers.
So the developers went to kickstarter and told the gamers: help us escape the evil publishers and we will all live happily ever after!
The gamers helped them.
And found out that developers are only people too and people can be just like the evil publishers ;)

Well, they got my 125+15 shipping from the kickstarter already...