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General discussion (archive)It's not DRM, problem solved?(119 posts)(119 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 13, 2011
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mishkamasya: No matter how they juggle words it's still Digital Rights Management, especially in case with GG. But Darkspore has nice single player capabilities that should not require permanent connection, so it could've kept saves locally like, say, SC2. So it's still some form of DRM, maybe less invasive than some alternatives, but still.
How is a permanent internet connection LESS invasive? That's pretty much the be-all-end-all of DRM.
Posted April 13, 2011
As far as GG is concerned, DRM free means that the game does not have any third party DRM installed along with the game, such as SecuROM, Starforce, Steam, etc. The fact that you need to connect to their server and log in to your account in order to verify ownership is not really any different than having to log into any other DD site in order to download your purchases.

Further, GG does not support installing games on PCs that do not have an Internet connection -- and never have. Which is another reason they don't consider verifying ownership in order to download to be DRM. In this respect, GG is similar to Steam, Impulse, Big Fish, etc., in that you need an initial connection in order to purchase and install. But there after, you don't need any internet connection unless the specific game requires it.
Posted April 13, 2011
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bansama: Further, GG does not support installing games on PCs that do not have an Internet connection -- and never have. Which is another reason they don't consider verifying ownership in order to download to be DRM. In this respect, GG is similar to Steam, Impulse, Big Fish, etc., in that you need an initial connection in order to purchase and install. But there after, you don't need any internet connection unless the specific game requires it.
It's very much DRM in the sense that if GG ever dies you will not be able to get your games, since they have to activate to install. Therefore it is the same as any activation DRM and should not say "DRM free." GOG is DRM free, GG is not.

That said there is a quick and painless work-around that people should stop talking to GG about directly for the love of God.
Posted April 13, 2011
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DelusionsBeta: In the first case, if you can crack it that easily then it's not DRM, frankly. In the second case, it's most definitely DRM.
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Trilarion: +1
That's like saying snails don't have shells because they are easily broken.

By that logic, any DRM that has been cracked isn't DRM because you can "crack it easily" by just pirating the game instead.
Posted April 13, 2011
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xyem: That's like saying snails don't have shells because they are easily broken.

By that logic, any DRM that has been cracked isn't DRM because you can "crack it easily" by just pirating the game instead.
Yes, that is indeed true. BAM!

Though I certainly would not call cracking a game you bought "pirating."
Posted April 13, 2011
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xyem: That's like saying snails don't have shells because they are easily broken.

By that logic, any DRM that has been cracked isn't DRM because you can "crack it easily" by just pirating the game instead.
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StingingVelvet: Yes, that is indeed true. BAM!

Though I certainly would not call cracking a game you bought "pirating."
It was more along the lines of paying GG for the game, but then not downloading it from them. DRM removal tools would come along with the download then.

Hope this makes it clearer ;)
Posted April 13, 2011
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xyem: It was more along the lines of paying GG for the game, but then not downloading it from them. DRM removal tools would come along with the download then.

Hope this makes it clearer ;)
I gotcha.

This ties into a debate I have had in a couple other threads though. If you accept DRM on the basis that you can crack it someday if it prevents you from playing you are not actively cracking right now. If DRM ever stops me from playing a game I will surely crack said game, but this has only ever happened to me once. For the vast majority of games I would only "pirate" them in the far future, when the companies are dead and gone and it's the only way to play. No one will care at that point about cracking that game.
Posted April 13, 2011
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Trilarion: +1
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xyem: That's like saying snails don't have shells because they are easily broken.

By that logic, any DRM that has been cracked isn't DRM because you can "crack it easily" by just pirating the game instead.
Here is my view: It's different from cracking a game. Just archiving a file in the windows explorer is not a crime and much to simple for being a DRM. For a crack I first would have to dig in the dark corners of the internet... and I wouldn't pay.

But for me, the real reason is, that nowhere there is an explicit message, that copying of the installer is forbidden. I would really need an explicit official statement from Gamersgate about this. I just take them on their word that what they offer as DRM free, really is DRM free. Otherwise I wouldn't see it as DRM free. So I go clearly with: don't ask them and don't get disappointed. Instead I just do it the way I think DRM free labeled games should be done.

By no means I want to pirate a game and crack it. At least I pay for all of them. But I cannot tolerate to use the downloader every time. However since I don't read anything about this in the general conditions...http://www.gamersgate.com/info/terms-of-use
Post edited April 13, 2011 by Trilarion
Posted April 13, 2011
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bansama: Further, GG does not support installing games on PCs that do not have an Internet connection -- and never have. Which is another reason they don't consider verifying ownership in order to download to be DRM. In this respect, GG is similar to Steam, Impulse, Big Fish, etc., in that you need an initial connection in order to purchase and install. But there after, you don't need any internet connection unless the specific game requires it.
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StingingVelvet: It's very much DRM in the sense that if GG ever dies you will not be able to get your games, since they have to activate to install. Therefore it is the same as any activation DRM and should not say "DRM free." GOG is DRM free, GG is not.

That said there is a quick and painless work-around that people should stop talking to GG about directly for the love of God.
Yes, the thing that makes GG DRM is you have to sign in not simply to download the game, but to install the game as well, since it deletes the setup.exe after the installation is complete, and it installs after it downloads.
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xyem: That's like saying snails don't have shells because they are easily broken.

By that logic, any DRM that has been cracked isn't DRM because you can "crack it easily" by just pirating the game instead.
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Trilarion: It's different from cracking a game. Just archiving a file in the windows explorer. It cannot be easier? For a crack I first would have to dig in the dark corners of the internet... and I wouldn't pay.
No, no it isn't different from cracking a game, it is a workaround of a system that is put in place, you do not have to go around dark corners of the internet for a crack you can make one yourself, theoretically anyway. The only difference is the difficulty of execution of the workaround
Post edited April 13, 2011 by Orryyrro
Posted April 13, 2011
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Orryyrro: ...
No, no it isn't different from cracking a game, it is a workaround of a system that is put in place, you do not have to go around dark corners of the internet for a crack you can make one yourself, theoretically anyway. The only difference is the difficulty of execution of the workaround
Okay, then first show me, explicitly where they officially restrict archiving the installer for games labeled DRM free?

And if so, I will still do it. Seeing the label DRM free and paying for the games, I feel perfectly morally justified to back them up. However I would agree that this would then not be DRM free anymore. So in a potential legal case I would argue that I trusted them on their label. Of course this conversation here should better not be related to me then. :)

edit:
Going directly to "But to download it you need to use our client. " I can say that I perfectly obey this. I use their client to download the game, but I don't use their client to install the game, but backup the installer and install later. Since nothing is said about this....

This might be nitpicking, but I am so fond of Gamersgate, I just don't want to give up on them. :) Otherwise I would have to ignore them for the monthly DRM free publications list. :(
Post edited April 13, 2011 by Trilarion
Posted April 13, 2011
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StingingVelvet: snip
Again, it's a different interpretation of what DRM free means. I've told you what it means in regards to GG. If you disagree, that's up to you. But that doesn't change the fact that that is how *they* define DRM free.
Posted April 13, 2011
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xyem: It was more along the lines of paying GG for the game, but then not downloading it from them. DRM removal tools would come along with the download then.

Hope this makes it clearer ;)
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StingingVelvet: I gotcha.

This ties into a debate I have had in a couple other threads though. If you accept DRM on the basis that you can crack it someday if it prevents you from playing you are not actively cracking right now. If DRM ever stops me from playing a game I will surely crack said game, but this has only ever happened to me once. For the vast majority of games I would only "pirate" them in the far future, when the companies are dead and gone and it's the only way to play. No one will care at that point about cracking that game.
Well, except the company that owns the rights to the game.

Just because a company has gone bankrupt doesn't mean that no-one owns the legal rights.
Posted April 13, 2011
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cheeseslice73: Well, except the company that owns the rights to the game.

Just because a company has gone bankrupt doesn't mean that no-one owns the legal rights.
If the new owner of the rights does not continue the activation servers then I doubt they would come after those circumventing it.
Posted April 13, 2011
The game and your account are two different things. You wouldn't want your account to be free of security measures, would you? By that same logic you're effectively saying that GOG games are DRMed simply because here too you must be logged into your account.
Posted April 13, 2011
We can put it simply.

Are you made aware you can back it up in that manner? No.
Would someone who knows little more than 'install, next, next, next, finish" know enough to be able to figure out these "easy" steps on their own? No.

It's DRM, just using very weak obfuscation.

If the downloader had a button that said "Download complete. Save installer?" and that prompted you to save all the files needed to install it without the client, it wouldn't be DRM.

Ignore below, because...
The simple fact that when referring copying the temporary files, they say "We are aware of this issue", strongly implies they have a problem with it being used in this manner.
... they may have meant they are aware of the issue that backing up the installer is non-obvious (optimistic thought)
Post edited April 13, 2011 by xyem
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)It's not DRM, problem solved?(119 posts)(119 posts)
(119 posts)