Yup, it's almost exactly how I phrased it too (from what I remember).
I'll say it again, I would rather lose a fun and relatively quick game than win a dull and prolonged game. I care about winning in as much as that's the object of the game, but having fun is much more important to me. This isn't it unfortunately.

In the interests of, well... doing something, unvote, vote Rodzaju for jumping on TB for no good reason (I realise you are probably just doing that to try and get the game moving).

I'm not sure if he was doing it to get the game moving, but I kinda got, annoyed because it felt like he presented that he was lurking until someone made a 'mistake' instead of getting involved...and to me that's just, dirty play (And scummy play while I'm considering the matter). And with the number of people hiding out, I guess I did get more then a bit annoyed.

The "Highly anticipated and greatly delayed" votecount

Krypsyn - 1 - GoJays2025
stoicsentry - 3 - , [url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_forum_mafia_11_the_goghammer_festival/post981]jefequeso, NotFrenchYet
NotFrenchYet - 2 - , [url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_forum_mafia_11_the_goghammer_festival/post1113]Robbeasy
TwilightBard - 3 - , [url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_forum_mafia_11_the_goghammer_festival/post1186]Rodzaju, Unknown
Rodzaju - 1 - SirPrimalform

Voting (7): GoJays2025, Rodzaju, bazilisek, TwilightBard, jefequeso, Red_Baron, NotFrenchYet, Robbeasy, Unknown, SirPrimalform
Not voting (6): xzyem, QuadrAlien, Detlik, stoicsentry

stoicsentry and TwilightBard are closest to lynch at L-4.
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Voteactions:
NotFrenchYet unvotes stoicsentry.
stoicsentry unvotes NotFrenchYet.
Red_Baron votes TwilightBard.
NotFrenchYet votes Robbeasy.
NotFrenchYet unvotes Robbeasy.
Robbeasy votes NotFrenchYet.
NotFrenchYet votes stoicsentry.
Rodzaju unvotes xzyem.
Rodzaju votes NotFrenchYet.
Rodzaju unvotes NotFrenchYet.
Rodzaju votes TwilightBard.
Unknown unvotes bazilisek.
Unknown votes TwilightBard
SirPrimalform votes Rodzaju.


Modmessage: Alright, sorry about the enormous delay and the Robbeasy/gameon mix up. Krypsyn should be joining us soon enough, hopefully, replacing xzyem. Beyond that, I will give you a deadline for the first of june - if you think this is too short a timespan, please let me know. And as always, please do not hesitate to point out any mistakes I have made with the votecount.

Sweet, I already have a vote on me! :P

First things first, I haven't read the thread in about 2 weeks, but before that I was following along out of curiosity. So, when I saw you guys were having trouble getting actives, I offered to join in and help out. As for what xzyem was on about at the start of the thread, your guess is as good as mine. You can hold it against me if you like, but I sure as heck can't explain it.

I'll have to catch up on the thread, but I remember my feelings were that NotFrenchYet was acting very suspiciously in her questioning of stoicsentry (overzealous on weak points, finding points to quibble with without much reason). Jefequeso backed her up with a weak post saying something like: "I don't think she would play like this if she were scum, but I have a soft spot for her."; so, he doesn't want to vote for her, but if she DOES turn out to he bad, he is innocent because he was just blindsides. Very scummy.

FOS NotFrenchYet
FOS jefequseo

I would vote for NFY not, except I have 100 or so posts to catch up on. I saw a few about stoicsentry role-claiming or other such nonsense. Role-claims are only useful if it looks like the town might lose OR if the town is winning and just needs to mop up. In this case, I think the game could go either way. I am not really in favor of forcing a role-claim from him at this point. I may change my mind once I read through all the posts, but it would have to be a big thing for me to consider it.

Finished reading up, and doing some back-reading as well. My feelings about NotFrenchYet have risen by an order of magnitude with her really pushing stoicsentry for a full-claim. I fail to see how knowing his exact role name would help anyone but scum at this point. Maybe NFY is totally innocent, but she has managed to trip just about all my scum warning bells; she just doesn't seem to be acting pro-town at all to me.

I found the jefequeso post that made me so suspicious of him. However, since he is out of town for the next 3 weeks, I feel we can safely leave him alone unless NPY turns up scum (either by lynch, nightkill, or whatever).

Also, TwilightBard with his post at 1,181 looks like either a town or a very smart scum just acting helpful. This would presume NPY is actually innocent (or another faction) and TB is try to subtly put blame on her. This is compounded by the post at 1,186, in which I totally agree with SirPrimalform (pretty much the most pro-town player to me at this point); TB looks really scummy with the way he worded that post. Other people have asked for the game to pick up, true, but TB makes it all about his boredom, not about the game itself.

I think the lynchpin is NotFrenchYet. We lynch her and MANY issues might be resolved. There have been firm battle lines drawn over the stoic/NFY, and lynching MPY will shed some light on various folks by viewing their voting patterns. This could be done with a stoicsentry lynch as well, but I feel NPY is far more scummy looking.

Vote: NotFrenchYet

EBWOP (hope 12 minutes was enough). Waiting was killing me. I hate having errors, and I tend make a lot of them in posts. There is a reason 2/3 of all my posts are edited two minutes after, heh.

Working link to jefequeso post:
www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_forum_mafia_11_the_goghammer_festival/post1051

In the last paragraph, MPY = NFY. No idea how I made that typo... P isn't even close to F on the keyboard...

Welcome, Krypsyn! I'm happy to see xzyem replaced by someone actually active for a change.

I see Rod is piling both of his votes on TB. Hm. But considering doublevoters are almost inevitably Town, I'll just chalk that one up to eagerness rather than try to read something sinister into it.

Well, that's the thing. It really is about the game more then my boredom, and while I'm pointing out my own, I can't be the only one feeling pressure to continue with most of the people having stayed out of most of the discussion.

Here's where I stand. My most town reads? NFY, Stoic, and Baz. And I'm pretty suspicious of NFY and Stoic, less Baz but that's more of, as a replacement he hasn't posted as much as they have.

NFY and Stoic have been, fairly active, they've built cases, they've attacked and defended points, and you can see where their minds are. Everyone else? Honestly, I don't have much of a clue. Most of them are lurking or popping up enough that you can't call them lurkers, but they have really sat out as an audience.

That's why Rod's post got to me so much. It's such a scummy play from a role that most people agree has to be town. It's very far out of left field when I know Rod's play style usually has him more involved in the types of discussions that have been going on.

I'm sorry that the wording bothered people, but honestly at this point I have been looking for something rather dramatic to do, and while I can't figure out an in game move that would shake people, I'm willing to go to the dramatic in order to beg and plead.

What is the point of this game right now?

Holy crap, you can't even tell who is who anymore.

Guys with all due respect to Damnation (it's not his fault!) but this game is not %*%&* good. It's a damn nightmare.

I couldn't care less at this point, so I'm going with my gut...


vote jefequeso

It was a weak argument on my part, but it did strike a chord with me. I am a firm believer that the most pro-town thing that a player can do is point EVERYTHING, however minor, that they see. This isn't to say that all vocal people are actually town roles, however they ARE behaving more pro-town (I hope you see the distinction). Without a lot of talking, and without lynches or night-kills of some of those vocal people, the game just stagnates. This is also why I believe that 'Lynch All Lurkers' is a horrible policy; it kills people without any clues after they are dead.

My reads are:
Sirprimalform - town
stoicsentry - town
Bazilisek - town
TwilightBard - mostly neutral
Rodzaju -neutral
QuadrAlien - mostly neutral (don't like the lurking)
Detlik - neutral (role-claim and some lurking has set of warning bells though)
Robbeasy - Neutral, leaning town (but I need to review his posts)
GoJays2025 - mostly neutral (need to review his posts too)
Red_Baron - leaning scum
jefequeso - scum
NotFrenchYet - scum

I think that is everyone. Please, everyone, let me know your thoughts on the list. None of these are set in stone, but it is how I see things right now. More insight is always helpful.

If everyone leaves a list like that, then when/if they die town will have information to go off of. Knowing the feelings of confirmed town, or even the fake feelings of confirmed scum, is very helpful for the town. Instead of asking people to full-claim their roles, we should be asking them to give their feelings about EVERYONE in the game.

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. Here goes. (To explain, "moderately suspicious" is the default level people start with.)

Rodzaju -- not suspicious at all. While I'd like to see a better proof that he indeed is the doublevoter (technically feasible, IMO), considering a) doublevoters are virtually always town and b) he hasn't been counterclaimed, I tend to believe him. And it would take a lot of weird events to convince me scum could have a doublevoter in this game.

Detlik -- mildly suspicious. Uses his role as an excuse to lurk, which I dislike. (Now I remember what I wanted to write several times already -- you can't vote, Detlik, but you can at least FoS people you'd be willing to hammer. A pseudo-vote, if you will. I'm willing to bet this is the reason why Damnation originally planned to keep track of FoSes.) His role would have been an exceedingly clever scum falseclaim, but it fits too well with Rod's doublevoter. Also, Detlik would be one scary newbie master criminal if that were the case.

stoicsentry -- mildly suspicious. I don't like the claim out of nowhere, but otherwise he feels townish enough.

SirPrimalform -- moderately suspicious. Consistently with his meta, he's definitely not lurking, but his posts tend to talk about things that aren't terribly relevant. Need more data.

Krypsyn -- moderately suspicious. Need more data, obviously. I like your style, though.

TwilightBard -- moderately suspicious. His meta fits perfectly: helpful, constructive, reasonable. The thing is, this exact same style has fooled me before.

Robbeasy -- moderately suspicious. Need more data.

GoJays2025 -- moderately suspicious. Need more data.

Red_Baron -- moderately suspicious. Has not been very active lately; before that, he was your typical RB.

Jefequeso -- moderately suspicious. I'm not sure I see what Krypsyn has against him.

QuadrAlien -- somewhat suspicious. Heavy lurker. Need more data.

NotFrenchYet -- extremely suspicious. I don't think I need to go over this again.

Hm. That's a kind of a boring list.
Why do you see R_B leaning scum, Krypsyn?

My instincts say:

Sirprimalform - unsure

Bazilisek - leaning town

TwilightBard - leaning scum

Rodzaju - Something has seemed off about him to me for a long time. However, his role seems unlikely to be held by scum.

QuadrAlien - leaning town

Detlik - leaning town

Robbeasy - leaning scum

GoJays2025 - leaning town

Red_Baron - leaning scum

jefequeso - leaning scum

NotFrenchYet - I don't know what to say on her at this point. Leaning scum on her for all the reasons I've put forth earlier. That said, I can't ignore the fact that she's been active in a game where I tend to think mafia would prefer NOT to be active. So that generally looks town. I guess the weird thing for me at this point is that when I was actively prosecuting her, no one was on my side. Now that I've backed off, a number of people have begun to believe she is scum.

Krypsyn: Don't know yet.

__________________________________________________________________________

Just something to ponder - but I've said before that if I was mafia, I wouldn't be posting much in this game. I don't know if you guys agreed with that, since I'm a noob and all, but that's how I felt. Thing is, we had a vote deadline. If no one was picked at the deadline, the lynch was random if I recall.

Well, as it stands, there were enough inactive townies that mafia could force a no-lynch during the day simply by staying out of the conversation. So if I was mafia, that's what I would do - mafia would rather have a random lynch since that gives them a better chance to win.

Now that the deadline has been lifted, if my theory is correct, we should expect to see an uptick in mafia posts. So I'm curious to go back and see if a few people have become active all of the sudden (excluding the replacements of course).

I was thinking mainly of his post 968 where he just writes, basically, "I think stoic is guilty and NFY is innocent, but I'll get back to you with reasons.", but then seems to drop it. This is a common scummy tactic; not backing up accusations. I guess I did this with RB too in the last post, but I an rectifying that now, I hope. ;)

However, while searching for that post, I ran across his post 1065 in which he does support his accusations somewhat. I think his reasons are a little confusing (3 mafias, etc), but at lest he made a case. I still consider him 'leaning scum' however, for his weak-seeming support of NFY and his confusing post backing it up 100 posts later.

It is interesting to note, though, that he throws attention on TwilightBard in the the second post. It is interesting to me, mainly, because I pointed a finger at TB a few posts ago. I don't think they can both be scum. It is possible that they are both scum and not on the same scum-team, though. Regardless, TB is leaning slightly more town to me after noticing that.

I wasn't in the game, but I was totally wishing I could vote NFY along with you. I am not the only one, either, judging my gameon's brief time in the game. He voted NFY, and gave a FOS to jefequeso (IIRC), almost immediately. I think it is because both of us probably read the game in a much shorter time-frame. I know I read the first 800 or so posts in a few days of off-and-on reading. Certain things like circular arguments or bringing up the same weak arguments over and over really stand out more if you see them again and again in the same sitting.

Exactly, and this is part of the reason I am trying to get EVERYONE to post their feelings. I am sure they are going to be posting, but I don't want to see meaningless fluff posts. If they post, I want to see some meat there (even if it is scummy fake tofu-meat).

Welcome Krypsyn! Have you played elsewhere before? You're coming across as quite the pro.

Uh... are you talking about Rodzaju or did you get the post number wrong? More likely you're talking about Rod, because you go on to talk about his attack on TB.

Honestly, I have never played a game in my life. However, I have read tons and tons of them since 2003 or 2004. I started out reading them in the old Ctrl-Alt-Del (the web-comic) forum. They mostly played Werewolf there, but the same strategies apply. I also read a few on the Nuklear Power (another comic site) forum. Mostly, I read the archives at mafiascum.net.

I was reading this one here the same way; only decided to join when it looked like the game might fall apart. I guess, like when I read any decent mystery novel, I wanted to see the ending ;).

Yeah, it was a typo, I actually meant the post above the only I mentioned. When I posted that, I about 5 hours (non-consecutive) sleep in a ~48 hour period, so I was a little loopy. I was just excited to finally get to post; been chomping at the bit for about a week waiting on Damnation to give me my role :). I have had enough sleep since, so my posts should be a little better. However, as I noted previously, I tend to make a lot of silly typos and such.