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General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 05, 2015
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Caban: (Ukraininans) called Yanukovych bloody dictator back then in 2013, how will you call Poroshenko now?
Huh? They call him "mister president".
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mecirt: I likely shouldn't be posting in this trainwreck of a thread, but I am strangely curious :( How will our Russian friends explain away this little interview?

http://www.novayagazeta.ru/society/67490.html

(that guy is a Russian soldier who got sent to Ukraine, was injured there, etc, and gives a fairly detailed account of the entire thing)
Since you clearly can read in Russian, I suggest that you read some more: http://topwar.ru/70210-novaya-gazeta-pozdravlyaem-sovramshi.html
Post edited March 05, 2015 by Sanjuro
Posted March 27, 2015
The mood over here is getting pretty foul. Many men are being summoned for military training, not only reservists, also people without prior military experience. Even if there's gonna be no war, people are losing their jobs over all of this. Also the mood at work is getting a bit depressing as of recent.
Posted March 27, 2015
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F4LL0UT: The mood over here is getting pretty foul. Many men are being summoned for military training, not only reservists, also people without prior military experience. Even if there's gonna be no war, people are losing their jobs over all of this. Also the mood at work is getting a bit depressing as of recent.
The mood over here is nice, rouble steadily becomes stronger.
Show in Ukruinian circus during last week was amazing.
Oligarch Poroshenko used his presidential post to cut oligarch Kolomoysky from control over main ukrainian oil company.
Kolomoysky with his private army captured main office of the said company.
He is a lord of Dnepropetrovsk oblast, he claimed that he would start another Maidan in his capital against "thieves in government", then exchanged threats with Poroshenko.
Both sent their battalions to each other capital (Kiev<>Dnepropetrovsk).
Although it seems that they made an agreement, Kolomoysky's bank got money from government today.

And double standards at its finest:
Revolutionists in Yemen overthrew president, but instead of defending "fresh democracy" US supports side which bombs them. Yanukovich probably like "I could do this?".
Posted March 28, 2015
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Gremlion: The mood over here is nice
According to some polish media (they quotet russian RBK newspaper - can't say how reliable source is that) during celebration in Moscow on 18.03.2015 crowd screamed: "Crimen is ours. Now Poland and Finnland". Is it truth? Did some other russian media reported that?
Post edited March 28, 2015 by tburger
Posted March 28, 2015
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tburger: According to some polish media (they quotet russian RBK newspaper - can't say how reliable source is that) during celebration in Moscow on 18.03.2015 crowd screamed: "Crimen is ours. Now Poland and Finnland". Is it truth? Did some other russian media reported that?
Some background: РБК (РосБизнесКонсалтинг - RusBusinessConsulting) is a media holding controlled (through Pragla Limited, a company in Cyprus) by Mikhail Prokhorov, a businessman who lost the elections of 2012 to Putin; he's not exactly in opposition to President and his party but rather keeps his own interests above all. Its director general is a Dutch citizen Derk Sauer.
I'm no expert, but I'd say their reliability is 50/50: not very likely to write outright fake news, but likely to show the perspective they see fitting.
Now to your question: I have yet to see the video of the celebration in question, but I find it highly unlikely that such mottos (if they were there at all) were supported by many. The first part - possible, but the second... not the general mood, at least from what I've seen. The article itself is written in a way implying that "it's not all that simple" with the meeting.
Personal opinion: I'd sooner believe that Poland has plans to return Lwów than claims that Russia has any interest in having Poland as its part. And as we both know you have no such plans, well, you get the idea. :-)
Posted March 28, 2015
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Gremlion: The mood over here is nice
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tburger: According to some polish media (they quotet russian RBK newspaper - can't say how reliable source is that) during celebration in Moscow on 18.03.2015 crowd screamed: "Crimen is ours. Now Poland and Finnland". Is it truth? Did some other russian media reported that?
If it was true, I would bet on paid actors.
For imperialists, depending on the level of insanity "second step after Crimea" would be "Now Novorossia", "helping non-citizens in Lithuania/Latvia" or "Claim back Alaska".
General mood as I see it from Siberia:
About Finland
On our TV they are portrayed as friends with similar traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peculiarities_of_the_National_Hunt
They give easy visas to people which live near border with Finland (like for my brother in St. Petersburg) for tourism and business. They have the most sane government between Baltic countries and have steady pro-Russian politic.
About Poland
"After leaving USSR they lost army, sold and closed factories, lost their agrarian potential, people run into EU, where they become plumbers.
Government doesn't care about people, instead of making business they score political points from US by calling bad names on Russia. Like how deep was Schetyna's asslicking of US tanks in Poland."
Pitiful image, right? Nobody would want to go and die for possibility to build factories for Poland.again.
Posted March 28, 2015
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Gremlion: About Poland
"After leaving USSR they lost army, sold and closed factories, lost their agrarian potential, people run into EU, where they become plumbers.
Government doesn't care about people, instead of making business they score political points from US by calling bad names on Russia. Like how deep was Schetyna's asslicking of US tanks in Poland."
Pitiful image, right? Nobody would want to go and die for possibility to build factories for Poland.again.
nah. poland is decent place to live.

and it was never part of ussr and it always had own army and still does.
Posted March 28, 2015
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Gremlion: "After leaving USSR
Not true - we never became a part of USSR, but we were a satelite of it.
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Gremlion: they lost army,
We still have an army. Sure, we have more generals than the US (with much less soldiers to command) but we still have an army.
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Gremlion: sold and closed factories,
True.
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Gremlion: lost their agrarian potential,
Not really, we still have agriculture - it's just a bit obsolete. Still it's better than agricultural collectives :)
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Gremlion: people run into EU, where they become plumbers.
Mostly true (I'm thinking about it myself but I have no idea about plumbing or welding :))
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Gremlion: Government doesn't care about people,
True.
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Gremlion: instead of making business they score political points from US by calling bad names on Russia.
I believe they try to do both, just aren't very good at doing business.
Post edited March 28, 2015 by Novotnus
Posted March 28, 2015
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Novotnus: Not true - we never became a part of USSR, but we were a satelite of it.
From my understanding, countries of Warshaw pact formed EU-like structure, with Moscow being Brussels, and by "leaving USSR" I meant leaving this structure.
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Novotnus: We still have an army. Sure, we have more generals than the US (with much less soldiers to command) but we still have an army.
Googled to be sure. It seems that your country have the best ground army in EU.
Aviation and Sea forces deteriorated too much, though.

For laugh http://i.imgur.com/4GHvdSo.jpg

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Novotnus: Mostly true (I'm thinking about it myself but I have no idea about plumbing or welding :))
Basic welding is easy to learn, for low level work you only need practice - ignite electrode, form stitch. I got some lessons when studied in university, 2 months to become certified worker.
Post edited March 28, 2015 by Gremlion
Posted March 28, 2015
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Caban: Let me explain you my point of view. Personally I see myself as libertarian
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HijacK: I respect your views, but every time I see someone claiming to be a libertarian I have to remind them that Libertarianism is a political philosophy, not science, hence why it holds greater risk than already tested political systems.

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Caban: and I'm not a fan od Russia and Putin's policy, however in this conflict - civil war supported by west and east - I'm much more on Novorossiya side. First of all I don't see any single point in joining Ukraine to EU
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HijacK: It's an economic thing. Russia is still a superpower, yet it is poorer than countries which are not.

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Caban: , especially with armed nationalists from both sides, russian-backed uprising probably saved us from this problem
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HijacK: What problem exactly? I only see expansionist views, unnecessary deaths, and decade long grudges.

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Caban: , we have other, inner and more serious ones like constant financial crisis and debt.
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HijacK: And how does this "civil" war exactly solve these issues? It only further deters from them.

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Caban: Secondly - you (Ukraininans) called Yanukovych bloody dictator back then in 2013, how will you call Poroshenko now?
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HijacK: This I am not familiar with, so I won't comment on it. I am not aware of what you are talking about here.

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Caban: Forcefully mobilizing young people into the army and sending them for death and to kill other citizens?
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HijacK: I guess this is where the term "civil" joins the war part. While I don't agree with the practice, take it with a grain of salt, all civil wars, or wars in general for that matter, were like that.

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Caban: As a libertarian I can't support such barbarity, you can't win with professional soldiers and volunteers? Oh well, so just give up, human lives are worth more than some piece of shitty, destroyed land.
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HijacK: You delve into some uncharted territory here. While it is true, human lives are valuable, you may talk about people who had their entire lives taken once with their territory. It is the basic principle of fighting for your homeland and not allowing yourself being pushed around. Would you call the First War of Scottish Independence or the American Civil War as being barbarities?

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Caban: And why the hell do you attack them? You should just protect them from further military expansion and run honest voting on eastern side - let them just choose in democratic way where will they live.
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HijacK: Yeah, here's the issue with libertarianism. Countries are not ran like that. If they want to be ran by someone else, their option is immigration. By taking territory away you are breaking the Constitution, which pretty much brands you as a criminal.

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Caban: I don't like Ukraine and RF but in such situation I would choose Russia for sure... Last but not least - range of ukrainian lies and propaganda is just immense, I'm trying to observe this conflict from every possible site and sorry, but russian propaganda is just much better documented and usually tells what really happens. OK, Russia for sure supports their people, but it's Ukraine who trained them in their own army (forcefully, as Givi jokes), it's Ukraine who equipped their military units and arms industry. You can't just say, that you're the power, and they would be defenceless without Russia. Real war with Russia would end on polish border in like 3 days... Let me give you an advice: do you really want to repair your country and follow the way to wester welfare? So just cut off this soviet tumor and start doing something with economy before rest of your citizens ask Putin for help. That's all. Thx for reading.
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HijacK: I don't agree with any of it. While I admire the courtesy and civil tone, I can't say I see your points, but that is just me as an individual. Having traveled far and long through both Americas and European countries, I definitely don't agree with the action of seceding territory just because the opposition is backed by bigger guns. This type of mentality would have rendered the entire eastern Europe defenseless against the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years, but people fight for what they believe in, and I think just like you, as a libertarian, seek further freedoms, their freedom for fighting should also be respected. They would not fight if they didn't feel like it. Just like the Germans soldiers got bored of fighting in WW1 and caused Germany to admit defeat, so could the Ukrainians do, yet they don't.
Thanks for this post!
It is very well written, good clear argumentation, yet very respectful.
It was a pleasure reading this, honestly.

Look, everyone, arguing should be done in this style, imho!
(not saying anything about the content here, for this I know too little of the whole situation)
Post edited March 28, 2015 by jdsgn
Posted March 28, 2015
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Gremlion: From my understanding, countries of Warshaw pact formed EU-like structure, with Moscow being Brussels, and by "leaving USSR" I meant leaving this structure.
Warsaw Pact was a military pact, so it worked more like a counterweight for NATO than EU. Still, People's Republic of Poland was closely related to USSR with USSR's soldiers stationing here.
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Gremlion: Googled to be sure. It seems that your country have the best ground army in EU.
Aviation and Sea forces deteriorated too much, though.
Than why do they take civilians for military training? Fortunately I'm marked as 'Unable to serve in the military in peace time'. My asthma haven't changed since they gave me that category and my sight got even worse - so maybe I'd be able to change it into 'Unable to serve in the military at all'.
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Gremlion: For laugh http://i.imgur.com/4GHvdSo.jpg
Good one :)
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Gremlion: Basic welding is easy to learn, for low level work you only need practice - ignite electrode, form stitch. I got some lessons when studied in university, 2 months to become certified worker.
Well, I guess my profession is pretty popular in EU (it has a lot to do with elrery people and Europe grows old)... I just don't want to go where I'm not really wanted.
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F4LL0UT: The mood over here is getting pretty foul. Many men are being summoned for military training, not only reservists, also people without prior military experience. Even if there's gonna be no war, people are losing their jobs over all of this. Also the mood at work is getting a bit depressing as of recent.
And to think I used to believe my D category is useless...
I hope this mess will end after the election.
Post edited March 28, 2015 by Novotnus
Posted March 28, 2015
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Novotnus: Than why do they take civilians for military training? Fortunately I'm marked as 'Unable to serve in the military in peace time'. My asthma haven't changed since they gave me that category and my sight got even worse - so maybe I'd be able to change it into 'Unable to serve in the military at all'.
You can google translate this overview http://rusplt.ru/world/armia-polshi.html
tl&dr Poland have 4th biggest amount of tanks, only one country from EU which researches new tank type, fighter jets newer than in US army
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Novotnus: Well, I guess my profession is pretty popular in EU (it has a lot to do with elrery people and Europe grows old)... I just don't want to go where I'm not really wanted.
Profession without experience?
You gonna have a baaad time.
Posted March 28, 2015
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Gremlion: You can google translate this overview http://rusplt.ru/world/armia-polshi.html
tl&dr Poland have 4th biggest amount of tanks, only one country from EU which researches new tank type, fighter jets newer than in US army
Can't argue with facts... but training, numbers and organisation are as important as equipment.
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Gremlion: Profession without experience?
You gonna have a baaad time.
One needs to gain the experience :) And my current work forces me to be flexible :)
Posted March 28, 2015
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Sanjuro: Personal opinion: I'd sooner believe that Poland has plans to return Lwów than claims that Russia has any interest in having Poland as its part. And as we both know you have no such plans, well, you get the idea. :-)
So it's just another example that journalists and media nowadays are rather showing a certain perspective on events, the perspecitive that fits them - and not just facts, connections between events, various points of view etc. Meh.. I don't like that.

And speaking of Lwów - as far as I know there WAS a possibility to reclaim some ex-polish territory taken by USSR by Ribentropp-Molotow pact. It was in the time when Soviet Union was falling appart but BEFORE Ukraine became independent. Good we didn't rise that claim - it would do more harm than good.
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Gremlion: Nobody would want to go and die for possibility to build factories for Poland.again.
As far as I'm concerned I agree. There is no reason for anyone to come here and die. If we stick to that - all will be fine.
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Gremlion: About Poland
"After leaving USSR they lost army, sold and closed factories, lost their agrarian potential, people run into EU, where they become plumbers".
Oh yes... An era of prosperity and wealth ended up in Poland when soviet block fell apart and we joined UE. Every time I think of an ocean of lost opportunities we would have being still a member of socialist countries I feel so sad ;-P
Post edited March 28, 2015 by tburger
Posted March 28, 2015
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Sanjuro: Personal opinion: I'd sooner believe that Poland has plans to return Lwów than claims that Russia has any interest in having Poland as its part. And as we both know you have no such plans, well, you get the idea. :-)
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tburger: So it's just another example that journalists and media nowadays are rather showing a certain perspective on events, the perspecitive that fits them - and not just facts, connections between events, various points of view etc. Meh.. I don't like that.
In this case, I'm inclined to say "yes". I found the original article, read it and had a distinct feeling the author pursued a certain goal while writing it and that goal hardly was to record everything objectively.
And speaking of Lwów - as far as I know there WAS a possibility to reclaim some ex-polish territory taken by USSR by Ribentropp-Molotow pact. It was in the time when Soviet Union was falling appart but BEFORE Ukraine became independent. Good we didn't rise that claim - it would do more harm than good.
Not sure what you mean here (not even sure what time you're referring to; USSR formally fell apart with its republics proclaiming independence) but I'm glad you realize it would not be a good idea. :-)

[off-topic] I have to keep the thread marked as my favorite topic to keep track of what's actually happening here, though I'd gladly see it buried until the whole mess is sorted out. Oh, the irony! [/off-topic]
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionUkrainian Civil War in progress?(1767 posts) (1767 posts) 
(1767 posts)