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johnnygoging: I think of rpgs as games where you choose who to be, and who you choose to be changes the game. and also usually there's wizards. and wicked magic swords and girls with their titties out everywhere but in a sort of gilded classy way.

Torchlight has all of that so I think it's an rpg.
But it's not.
Deus ex does not have any magic but still it's THE RPG (the best game of all time).
Post edited February 29, 2016 by LiefLayer
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johnnygoging: I think of rpgs as games where you choose who to be, and who you choose to be changes the game. and also usually there's wizards. and wicked magic swords and girls with their titties out everywhere but in a sort of gilded classy way.

Torchlight has all of that so I think it's an rpg.
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LiefLayer: But it's not.
Deus ex does not have any magic but still it's THE RPG (the best game of all time).
and it's one of the best examples of a game where you choose who the player is and the game changes as a result.
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LiefLayer: But it's not.
Deus ex does not have any magic but still it's THE RPG (the best game of all time).
Ah, but "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".
An online friend of mine once shared his list of criteria to define an RPG, and although I usually don't believe in these attempts to come up with strict (often biased) definitions, I found his to be surprisingly simple, useful and convincing. He's a been a pen & paper DM for decades, a modder for Unlimited Adventures, Neverwinter Nights, Neverwinter Online etc., knows a lot about D&D and other systems and has played through almost every popular CRPG since the 80's. And he still didn't say: I'm the expert and this is what real RPGs are. He simply said: This is the definition I use for myself. And the criteria were that it has to have:

* Character Statistics
* Combat Mechanics with Choices
* Equipment
* Quests and NPC Interaction
* Character Growth

Simple as that. And I can agree with the usefulness of this definition, because to me RPGs are neither games about playing a role, nor about rolling a dice, nor about tactical combat or whatever. Instead, they are a wild mixture of several different mechanics and ideas, and IMO you can't define them by singling out only one or two aspects, what defines them to me is precisely this mix of several different aspects combined. I'm fully aware though that not everyone would agree to such a defintion, because according to the criteria above, RPGs elitists would have to accept games like Diablo and Mass Effect as part of their favorite genre, and I know that's not going to happen, not even under the alien concept of 'subgenre'. ;)
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LiefLayer: it's an awesome hack&slash
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InfraSuperman: It's an action-RPG, because of the whole leveling and skill-tree stuff, with hack&slash being the central gameplay element.
It may be simplistic, but it's still in a sub-genre of RPGs.
Personally, I don't consider leveling and skill trees to affect the classification of a game into a genre. I believe Civilization IV has both, but I have never actually seen that game referred to as an RPG. Therefore, I don't see adding such elements to an action game to qualify it as an RPG.

(I actually consider Action and RPG to be disjoint categories; for a game to be both, it has to have two separate combat systems.)
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Leroux: [...] "Top 10 RPGs We Need to Sell More Copies of". ;)
That's pretty much what all these little non-discounted, themed 10-pack assortments are, as far as I can tell.
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Leroux: Lionheart appearing in that list would have been my least complaint. There's a glaring lack of Planescape: Torment, not even Baldur's Gate 2 is present, no Ultima VII, and they put Shadowrun Returns before Dragonfall Director's Cut. Funnily enough, no Witcher game in the top 10 either. Then again, it doesn't say "best" or "most popular RPGs" anywhere, just "top 10", and that could be anything, e.g. "Top 10 RPGs We Need to Sell More Copies of". ;)
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KasperHviid: This is mostly due to tecnical limitations. These Top Tens are simply linking to a GoG game search. In this case, it links to a search for:

sith lords|shadowrun returns|nox|anachronox|neverwinter diamond|arcanum|darklands|divinity developer's|lionheart|torchlight

But a search for "Ultima 7", it would also give "ULTIMAte Body Blows", "ULTIMAte Doom", "Ultima Underworld 1+2" ..

This is why there's no Ultima in top ten, nor any other game that gives gives multiple results when you search for it.
Nope, that's not the reason -- a search for "ultima complete" will return ONLY Ultima VII: The Complete Edition. =)
Reading this thread makes me feel like yall would nitpick the cure for cancer or something :P

Planescape: Torment is definitely a Top 10 RPG but it also gets sold with the other D&D titles so that's why it's not in THIS particular list :)

Also, lists are subjective like just about everything else :P
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Leroux: Anyway, reading some of the thread posts here, I guess we were lucky that they didn't name it "10 real RPGs". Man, I'm so sick of that futile discussion. :P
He says, before going on to launch himself right into that futile discussion. :P
Really, any topic even remotely related to RPGs should have as part of the title "and fruitless, pedantic arguing about what an RPG is".
Lionheart is a pretty decent game, I quit enjoy it.

My problem on the list is Shadowrun Returns, which is inferior in every way to Shadowrun: Dragonfall.
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Leroux: Anyway, reading some of the thread posts here, I guess we were lucky that they didn't name it "10 real RPGs". Man, I'm so sick of that futile discussion. :P
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HunchBluntley: He says, before going on to launch himself right into that futile discussion. :P
Really, any topic even remotely related to RPGs should have as part of the title "and fruitless, pedantic arguing about what an RPG is".
Yup, guilty as charged, and point taken. It's really hard to resist getting drawn into it, and I already knew I would regret it even while I did it, which is part of why I find this topic so annoying. :)

Although, if I'm honest, I guess it's not so much the discussion that I find annoying, but the zealotry with which is often led. If it was a reasonable discussion with the goal of finding a useful definiton that most people could agree on, I wouldn't mind, but more often than not it just seems to be about pushing the one true definition of a 'real RPG', no matter if anyone else agrees that it's actually useful or widely accepted.
Post edited February 29, 2016 by Leroux