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amok: or they should have their own laws?
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Nirth: Not exactly but perhaps exception laws (or whatever it's called) so that it doesn't favour them as much.
so we should not be equal in the eye of the law?
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amok: so we should not be equal in the eye of the law?
That sounds more like an assumption based on morals. I can't answer that, I don't know. Depends on who you are asking.

The point is that I think copyright laws (among other things) are changed or exploited in favour of large organizations because they can. Do you at least understand that as a concept?
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amok: so we should not be equal in the eye of the law?
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Nirth: That sounds more like an assumption based on morals. I can't answer that, I don't know. Depends on who you are asking.

The point is that I think copyright laws (among other things) are changed or exploited in favour of large organizations because they can. Do you at least understand that as a concept?
Yes, but to do something like that you need to be unfair to a party in some way. You can not have it both ways - i.e. having fair and equal laws for all and making concessions for being larger or smaller company sizes.
Post edited October 08, 2015 by amok
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amok: Yes, but to do something like that you need to be unfair to a party in some way. You can not have it both ways - i.e. having fair and equal laws for all and making concessions for being larger or smaller company sizes.
I did not imply that perfect balance is possible, merely that some changes are needed. Besides, the "fair and equal laws" may work on paper and in people's minds but I doubt that really flies in practice.
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amok: Yes, but to do something like that you need to be unfair to a party in some way. You can not have it both ways - i.e. having fair and equal laws for all and making concessions for being larger or smaller company sizes.
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Nirth: I did not imply that perfect balance is possible, merely that some changes are needed. Besides, the "fair and equal laws" may work on paper and in people's minds but I doubt that really flies in practice.
No, but is it not an the ideal to strive towards? (I do not have the answer here, it is a personal thingy)

I have no problems with unbalanced laws, but I wonder who many actually consider the consequences when they make statements such as you did? It will end in a moral dilemma, yes - it sounds easy to start with, but it will end with consequences where you give people allowance to break/bend the law, depending on social or economic status
Post edited October 08, 2015 by amok
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mobutu: what's that, pokemon??
Imagine the dull and repetitive grind made into a franchise with a cast of 721 quirky and colorful characters.
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Gnostic: How $4000 is worth the legal fees and bad press?
When you are the holder of a billion dollar franchise, what the hell do you need the money for?
Post edited October 08, 2015 by Darvond
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rtcvb32: But Nintendo isn't the only one allowed to do anything and everything with them. People could throw them away, burn them, cut the pictures out and create new art, once it leaves Nintendo's hands the product is owned physically by someone else. Cutting out parts of cards and making flowers certainly doesn't ruin Nintendo's rights or property; At which case Nintendo still made their money on the cards, and if someone else happens to be a middle man and make money due to that isn't illegal, unless you somehow believe you have to pay Nintendo directly and drive up to their doorstep to buy the cards or product.

But let's be frank... copyright needs a huge overhaul... If not, then almost nothing will ever go into the public domain again (that wasn't put there immediately).
Right, you can set fire to the pokemon cards or sell them or whatever. That's all fine because you're not infringing their copyright. Copyright grants them exclusive rights to make pokemon related things. There's a difference between hosting a pokemon themed party in your house and hosting a pokemon themed party in your business and charging for tickets.

I agree that we're in need of copyright reform though, it should only last for 20 years or so IMO.

EDIT: Phew, was trying to post this last night but the forum kept eating it.
Post edited October 08, 2015 by SirPrimalform
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Gnostic: How $4000 is worth the legal fees and bad press?
their lawyer friends need to eat. and protecting the image of the brand or something.
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Elmofongo: Already the #FuckKonami for cancelling Silent Hills is slowing cooling off.
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rampancy: Funny you mention that, since Jim Fucking Sterling Son's latest video tackles that, at least tangentially. It's at least nice to know it's not just me that's noticed the gaming market's apparent lack of memory when it comes to industry transgressions.

And Nintendo is a great example of that. They do, have done, and are doing a lot of good things, yeah. But their stance towards YouTubers and their reputation for being extremely foul towards fan-driven content is utterly abhorrent. Yet, seemingly, whenever they announce a new game or Amiibo from one of their prized IPs everyone announces their apparent undying and uncritical love for Nintendo. Even Jim Sterling (and at least he actually is self-aware enough to admit that). People either don't seem to remember or don't seem to care that Nintendo (and Sega as well) seem to view their fans with contempt if they're not paying them money for something.

I remember when some companies used to revel in the attention generated by fan communities and fan-created content, even when it verged into unexpected silliness. Now it almost seems like they really do want the benefits of a rabid fanbase with none of the consequences, as noted earlier. Just people blindly lining up to buy the latest Mario or Zelda game.

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Elmofongo: Boycotts mean nothing :P
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rampancy: Which I sadly agree with, but honestly, I don't like the alternatives. (Apathy? Acquiescence? Whole-hearted embacing of it?)
im disgusted that you even associate pokemon fans with FPS-only mouth-breathing "it's gay so it's funny" brofisters. bad comparision. you should be ashamed.
Post edited October 08, 2015 by dick1982
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SirPrimalform: There's a difference between hosting a pokemon themed party in your house and hosting a pokemon themed party in your business and charging for tickets.
So if it was blank wall themed, then it's okay to charge 2 dollars? The ticket/surcharge seems more applicable to helping the business run and as he mentioned buy prizes for giving away. I really don't see the problem unless he was selling merchandise claiming it was pokemon while it wasn't. And i doubt he had rides either in the cafe, so everyone is just sitting...

No... i think it's just too many companies and people are sue-happy... looking for any excuse at all. Actually there's troll patents that get vague huge coverage of patents, and then attack hundreds of companies at a time threatening to sue, but accept settlements because settling is much cheaper than hiring lawyers and fighting it in court. This is just another one of those things as far as i'm concerned.
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rtcvb32: So if it was blank wall themed, then it's okay to charge 2 dollars? The ticket/surcharge seems more applicable to helping the business run and as he mentioned buy prizes for giving away. I really don't see the problem unless he was selling merchandise claiming it was pokemon while it wasn't. And i doubt he had rides either in the cafe, so everyone is just sitting...
Alright, put it this way: He was passing his café off as Pokémon merchandise. He had been doing this for years too.

And yes, blank wall themed would be fine. As would characters of his own design, something public domain or even something he'd licensed. This isn't some kid printing out a Pokémon birthday card they made in publisher and then having a SWAT team bust down the door, this is an adult repeatedly using copyrighted characters to advertise his business and to attract people to an event for which he charged money. He's an idiot.

Are they being heavy handed? It certainly sounds like it. Are they wrong to stop him? Not at all, it just should have been a cease and desist. For all we know, he got one and ignored it.
Post edited October 08, 2015 by SirPrimalform
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SirPrimalform: this is an adult repeatedly using copyrighted characters to advertise his business and to attract people to an event for which he charged money.
I have to scratch my head and ask: So?

Let's change the situation. Let's assume someone who's a fan of Disney, goes to Disney's theme park and buys tons of stuff ends up opening a cafe or something, and they decide 'i'll just decorate with the toys and stuff i got over the years!' this includes posters, stuffed animals, hats, etc. Now just for fun since they found a lot of interesting pies cakes and other stuff in the disney movies, they decide to make their own versions of those so people can order them. They optionally allow waitresses to cosplay if they want as any disney character they want (assuming it's not impractical and can still serve tea and cake, etc). Hell they probably even have Fantasia in the background for music if they want.

The cafe will be making money, and they will be using copyrighted materials to advertise their own shop. But none of the stuff that makes the theme is being sold, it's just on display to make the theme, something to make it stand out as different, not because the cafe couldn't stand alone as a normal cafe. Sorta like having a tiny park in the middle of a city, it's just a little break from the norm.

I have to ask what the problem is? Yeah i know disney might make a bit fit of it, or they might send someone to make sure their company name isn't being disgraced and if it is either make suggestions or demand a fee to use the theme (and even let them name the cafe with the disney name) for part of it. But assuming the name Disney isn't used at all and everything just happens to be related to disney, i really don't see the issue...

I'll say though, i know i'm naive and completely ignorant of whatever trademark laws are present, although a number of them are stupid and need an overhaul (if the copyright system is anything to go by).
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SirPrimalform: I agree that we're in need of copyright reform though, it should only last for 20 years or so IMO.
Do you mean 20 years after the creator's death, or 20 years total? Currently it lasts for 70 years after the creator's death. Personally, I think copyright should last until the creator's death and then end there.
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markrichardb: I think some people are just resigned that Japanese companies like Nintendo live in a bubble, to the point where even their brethren in the West (Nintendo of America) are sometimes frustrated because they can see which way the wind is blowing. As much as people like to say this Western company or that Western company never listens, they do try. They’re just trying to figure out how.

I've mentioned this before, but a developer once had to smuggle Jim Sterling into their booth because the publisher Konami didn't like him. I'd like to think he wore this disguise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t_oTh6qXFs
Heh. I do like his masks and disguises, though I think that sometimes he does kind of take it a little too far. You do raise a good point though about the Western branches of Japanese developers though; it reminds me of the conflict between Sega of America and Sega of Japan.

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dick1982: im disgusted that you even associate pokemon fans with FPS-only mouth-breathing "it's gay so it's funny" brofisters. bad comparision. you should be ashamed.
I'm associating rabid fans with the state of being uncritically devoted to a company or IP (and it can of course be any company or IP), regardless of how horrible their business practices my be.
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rtcvb32: I have to ask what the problem is? Yeah i know disney might make a bit fit of it, or they might send someone to make sure their company name isn't being disgraced and if it is either make suggestions or demand a fee to use the theme (and even let them name the cafe with the disney name) for part of it. But assuming the name Disney isn't used at all and everything just happens to be related to disney, i really don't see the issue...
Personally, I morally wouldn't have any problem with it. But from what I gather both Disney and Nintendo are zealously protective of their brands and IP, to the point where it's not so much someone making money by piggybacking on the brand that is the problem, but it's them having their control of their brand threatened (either directly or indirectly). One could even say that their brand identities are even more valuable to them than the products they actually sell.

In the case of your example above, Disney wouldn't have any problem with a Disney-themed cafe if it were hosted on a Disney property, run by wholly Disney-selected and trained personnel, used exclusively Disney-provided supplies, and headed up by someone trained in Disney-specific corporate practices. But from their perspective an independently owned cafe run by someone who calls themselves a fan, using the Disney brand in a manner outside of Disney's control would be unacceptable. Disney's so big that it likely wouldn't care about any potential lost revenue.
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Marioface5: Do you mean 20 years after the creator's death, or 20 years total? Currently it lasts for 70 years after the creator's death. Personally, I think copyright should last until the creator's death and then end there.
I meant 20 years total. The original point of copyright was to give the author an exclusive right to reproduce their work for a limited time so they had a possibility of making a living from it. That in turn would allow them to continue to produce new works (as well as giving them an incentive to produce new works).
20 years is plenty for the original purpose
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rtcvb32: I have to scratch my head and ask: So?

Let's change the situation. Let's assume someone who's a fan of Disney, goes to Disney's theme park and buys tons of stuff ends up opening a cafe or something, and they decide 'i'll just decorate with the toys and stuff i got over the years!' this includes posters, stuffed animals, hats, etc. Now just for fun since they found a lot of interesting pies cakes and other stuff in the disney movies, they decide to make their own versions of those so people can order them. They optionally allow waitresses to cosplay if they want as any disney character they want (assuming it's not impractical and can still serve tea and cake, etc). Hell they probably even have Fantasia in the background for music if they want.

The cafe will be making money, and they will be using copyrighted materials to advertise their own shop. But none of the stuff that makes the theme is being sold, it's just on display to make the theme, something to make it stand out as different, not because the cafe couldn't stand alone as a normal cafe. Sorta like having a tiny park in the middle of a city, it's just a little break from the norm.

I have to ask what the problem is? Yeah i know disney might make a bit fit of it, or they might send someone to make sure their company name isn't being disgraced and if it is either make suggestions or demand a fee to use the theme (and even let them name the cafe with the disney name) for part of it. But assuming the name Disney isn't used at all and everything just happens to be related to disney, i really don't see the issue...

I'll say though, i know i'm naive and completely ignorant of whatever trademark laws are present, although a number of them are stupid and need an overhaul (if the copyright system is anything to go by).
Again, advertising it as a Pokemon or Disney party and charging money is the stupid bit and is what attracts the 'eye of sauron'.
Post edited October 09, 2015 by SirPrimalform