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Telika: By the way, you people have tricked me into watching "the doomsday machine" yesterday, and therefore i hate you all.
You insult my favorite episode of TOS?!
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Elmofongo: That whole Dominion War of DS9 sounds like a more groundbreaking event in Star Trek history than whatever the plot to Inssurection introduced.
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Breja: Oh, there is no comparison. It's the biggest "event" we get to see. Even the Borg attack in TNG and the wipeout at Wolf 359 is after all coverd in two episodes. The Dominon War is two whole seasons (more than that really, but the last two seasons are the total, all out war).

By the way, since you enjoy the political/war side of Star Trek more, you might be interested in Axanar. It's shaping up to be a really interesting fan production, in fact even the Prelude short movie they already have is quite good. And having seen TOS recently you should still remember Garth of Izar.
Watching the season 4 episode, "First Contact" and it certainly is a good episode establishing how the Federation introduces itself to a species ready for space travel.

It's like the opposite/counter part of Who Watches the Watchers.
Post edited June 13, 2015 by Elmofongo
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Telika: By the way, you people have tricked me into watching "the doomsday machine" yesterday, and therefore i hate you all.
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Elmofongo: You insult my favorite episode of TOS?!
I... guess ?

I was really like "Okay, let's watch THE episode that everybody say is THE BEST. Out of three and a half billion episodes. Whatever the rest of the series, that one should be kinda good, I suppose."

I had, hm... issues with it.
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Elmofongo: You insult my favorite episode of TOS?!
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Telika: I... guess ?

I was really like "Okay, let's watch THE episode that everybody say is THE BEST. Out of three and a half billion episodes. Whatever the rest of the series, that one should be kinda good, I suppose."

I had, hm... issues with it.
It's my favorite episode by "TOS" standards not Star Trek as a whole thing. I am sure this episode is rather quiant and simple compared to more epic episodes of TNG and DS9.

I just think that this episode was quite big and epic for it's time. It's legacy is seen in the Star Trek Online:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95aPF9fDLAc

But do explain what's your issue with the episode.

My obvious thought is why Uhura and Chekov is not in the episode.
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Elmofongo: My obvious thought is why Uhura and Chekov is not in the episode.
budget and other commitments by the actors

star trek was made on a shoestring budget and id wadger that most of its budget for the doomsday machine went up to
the guest star player commodore deckard
the shuttle craft special effects
the second constitution star ship ( damaged so its NOT a reuse of the enterprise )
and the doomsday machine it self

keep in mind that each star trek episode had a budget of around 180,000 and while that may sound a lot especially for the 1960's
the producers had to do everything with that
from the wages of cast and crew
to special effects
to prosthetics make up sets and on site or studio filming

and suddenly 180,000 isnt that much anymore
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Elmofongo: My obvious thought is why Uhura and Chekov is not in the episode.
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snowkatt: budget and other commitments by the actors

star trek was made on a shoestring budget and id wadger that most of its budget for the doomsday machine went up to
the guest star player commodore deckard
the shuttle craft special effects
the second constitution star ship ( damaged so its NOT a reuse of the enterprise )
and the doomsday machine it self

keep in mind that each star trek episode had a budget of around 180,000 and while that may sound a lot especially for the 1960's
the producers had to do everything with that
from the wages of cast and crew
to special effects
to prosthetics make up sets and on site or studio filming

and suddenly 180,000 isnt that much anymore
TNG doubles that budget? DS9 even more so? Enterprise was the highest budget a TV Star Trek show ever had?

I wonder what's the budget for Game of Thrones and Band of Brothers?
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Elmofongo: TNG doubles that budget? DS9 even more so? Enterprise was the highest budget a TV Star Trek show ever had?

I wonder what's the budget for Game of Thrones and Band of Brothers?
quadruples the budget actually
i think an average tng episode had a budget of 1 to 2 million maybe more

but the TOS budget was tiny the 70's doctor who budget was even smaller ( about 50,000 pound per serial )

as for uhura not appearing in the doomsday machine this article mentioned she appeared in a tarzan movie in 1967 http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Nichelle_Nichols

so that may have conflicted with her star trek commitments ( and hilariously of all actors she got the best pay for what desilu saw as essentially a bit part first a flat 1000 fee per episode she apperead in and then 140 per day she showed up for her part and if she was to appears 7 days in the week she still got nearly a 1000 again )

i cant find anything in regards to koenig's commitments though or why he wasnt in the doomsday machine

but that episode wouldnt really flourish with chekov or uhura anyway
its about kirk spock mccoy and deckard and his reckless ahab like obssesion with his "whale "

edit : in 1992 the budget for an average tng episode was almost 2 million dollars
paramount got that back in spades with advertising rights alone
http://articles.latimes.com/print/1992-11-06/entertainment/ca-1286_1_television-star-trek
* Quality. Perhaps most importantly, there are comments from advertisers and stations that "The Next Generation" simply keeps getting better. At nearly $2 million an episode, which is too rich for the belt-tightening networks, the producers argue that nothing on television looks like their show.

and my tos episode cost comes from the shatner book inside star trek where he cites the average cost per episode to be aroun 180-190,000

but you can read the production costs here
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/TOS_Season_1
Production for the initial season of Star Trek cost an average of US$190,635 per episode. (Some episodes went largely over budget, such as "The City on the Edge of Forever", which cost $250,396, the most expensive of all episodes except the two pilots). But this figure would gradually decrease in the two seasons to come.
Post edited June 13, 2015 by snowkatt
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Elmofongo: But do explain what's your issue with the episode.

My obvious thought is why Uhura and Chekov is not in the episode.
Well, I'm not star-trek-trained enough to have noticed the lack of chekov character (though i kinda like him), but yeah, i wondered why uhura had gone all michael jackson in that.

But more to the point, I found the story very basic and vaguely nonsensical. Not better (marginally worse) that the "stories" we used to improvise and play out with our toys when I was a kid, and less consistent.

For instance (SPOILERS, RUN AWAY), the plot revolves around a big "death star" spaceship thingy shaped as a cone with a big wide open fire-breathing mouth on the front. It is armoured with supermetal, but can be destroyed from the inside of that "mouth" because there is no armour there. And what it takes to destroy it from in there is the explosion of a spaceship. So :

- You have a weird looking battle between a spaceship and that doomsday machine, face to face. Where the doomsday machine fires from its mouth at a stationarry spacehip, and that spaceship responds by firing from impossibly contrieved angles in order to hit the super-armoured cone "behind" that mouth-like opening. Just for the sake of "oh noes it is super armoured". It makes geometrically no sense, but serves the plot at that oment.

- The monster-machine weapon is supposed to slice planets easily, but it takes several shots to damage one spaceship.

- The monster-machine is supposed to have been destroying whole civilizations for ages (including the one that built it) while the energy of one rigged spaceship is enough to take it down, provided it explodes inside its impossible-to-miss-unless-scriptwriter-cheats wide open "mouth". Nobody ever managed to fire an actual missile in there, in the eternity of ever ?

I also have issues with the relative distances of the three protagonists (the two spaceshipsand the monster thingy), which I couldn't "feel" well, and that seemed arbitrarily plot-driven (cheaply and capriciously "close/far/slow/fast enough" as the plot needed it without any real coherence). Which is a common flaw in tv series (it gets pretty obscene in UFO, and, in their own way, in most movies that have a drive-to-arrive-in-time sequences). And, yeah, well, the rest are standard star trek stuff that just come with the package, so it wouldn't be fair to delve further in that (the hilarious shatner acting -i like to go 'whoosh' whenever he changes his pose- or the everybody-shaken-in-variable-directions-and-strengths scenes are just clichés that make the charm of the series, I suppose).

But all in all, the episode felt cheap and easy, to me. Like, written in five minutes. I was not impressed. I'm not against stories that feel like kids playing with toys (heck, I love John Carpenter), but I expected something a bit different, from a notoriously-best-episode-ever.
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Elmofongo: TNG doubles that budget? DS9 even more so? Enterprise was the highest budget a TV Star Trek show ever had?

I wonder what's the budget for Game of Thrones and Band of Brothers?
band of brothers budget per episode is 12 and a half million ( a decent movie then )

game of thrones is 6 million per episode

star trek ds 9 costs 4 million per episode and the opener was 12 million

according to this imdb article http://www.imdb.com/list/ls056710448/

the pacific is the most expensive with a budget of 18 million per episode
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Telika: from a notoriously-best-episode-ever.
Is it? I mean, I like it (don't remember it well enough to argue your points) but I would never call it best of the series. Probably wouldn't even make my top 5 to be honest. If there is a notoriously-best-episode-ever it's definately The City on the Edge of Forever (and probably rightly so). It takes the top spot on every list I've ever seen I think.
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snowkatt: the pacific is the most expensive with a budget of 18 million per episode
The most expensive lullaby ever :D I literally fell asleep trying to watch the first episode.
Post edited June 13, 2015 by Breja
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Breja: Is it? I mean, I like it (don't remember it well enough to argue your points) but I would never call it best of the series. Probably wouldn't even make my top 5 to be honest. If there is a notoriously-best-episode-ever it's definately The City on the Edge of Forever (and probably rightly so).
The most expensive lullaby ever :D I literally fell asleep trying to watch the first episode.
usually its the city on the edge of forever balance of terror and the trouble with tribbles that are widely regarded as tos's best

the doomsday machine is moby dick in space
and tos had to work with a miniscule budget and 1960's special effects a lot of these special effects look static and contrived these days

oh and for those who are wondering
babylon 5 had an estimated budget of 900,000 per episode
Post edited June 13, 2015 by snowkatt
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Elmofongo: But do explain what's your issue with the episode.

My obvious thought is why Uhura and Chekov is not in the episode.
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Telika: Well, I'm not star-trek-trained enough to have noticed the lack of chekov character (though i kinda like him), but yeah, i wondered why uhura had gone all michael jackson in that.

But more to the point, I found the story very basic and vaguely nonsensical. Not better (marginally worse) that the "stories" we used to improvise and play out with our toys when I was a kid, and less consistent.

For instance (SPOILERS, RUN AWAY), the plot revolves around a big "death star" spaceship thingy shaped as a cone with a big wide open fire-breathing mouth on the front. It is armoured with supermetal, but can be destroyed from the inside of that "mouth" because there is no armour there. And what it takes to destroy it from in there is the explosion of a spaceship. So :

- You have a weird looking battle between a spaceship and that doomsday machine, face to face. Where the doomsday machine fires from its mouth at a stationarry spacehip, and that spaceship responds by firing from impossibly contrieved angles in order to hit the super-armoured cone "behind" that mouth-like opening. Just for the sake of "oh noes it is super armoured". It makes geometrically no sense, but serves the plot at that oment.

- The monster-machine weapon is supposed to slice planets easily, but it takes several shots to damage one spaceship.

- The monster-machine is supposed to have been destroying whole civilizations for ages (including the one that built it) while the energy of one rigged spaceship is enough to take it down, provided it explodes inside its impossible-to-miss-unless-scriptwriter-cheats wide open "mouth". Nobody ever managed to fire an actual missile in there, in the eternity of ever ?

I also have issues with the relative distances of the three protagonists (the two spaceshipsand the monster thingy), which I couldn't "feel" well, and that seemed arbitrarily plot-driven (cheaply and capriciously "close/far/slow/fast enough" as the plot needed it without any real coherence). Which is a common flaw in tv series (it gets pretty obscene in UFO, and, in their own way, in most movies that have a drive-to-arrive-in-time sequences). And, yeah, well, the rest are standard star trek stuff that just come with the package, so it wouldn't be fair to delve further in that (the hilarious shatner acting -i like to go 'whoosh' whenever he changes his pose- or the everybody-shaken-in-variable-directions-and-strengths scenes are just clichés that make the charm of the series, I suppose).

But all in all, the episode felt cheap and easy, to me. Like, written in five minutes. I was not impressed. I'm not against stories that feel like kids playing with toys (heck, I love John Carpenter), but I expected something a bit different, from a notoriously-best-episode-ever.
To me it's the acting is what sold The Doomsday Machine. Decker certainly was a highlight.

I espcially like Spock's line:

Decker, "That thing must be destroyed!"

Spock, "You've attemped to destroy it before Commodore, the result was a wrecked ship, and a dead crew"

And have you forgotten that Decker sacrificed himself and it showed that the shuttle explosion "Hurt" the ship"

I don't know why people makes fun of Shatner's acting. I enjoy when he is on screen.
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Breja: Is it? I mean, I like it (don't remember it well enough to argue your points) but I would never call it best of the series. Probably wouldn't even make my top 5 to be honest. If there is a notoriously-best-episode-ever it's definately The City on the Edge of Forever (and probably rightly so).
The most expensive lullaby ever :D I literally fell asleep trying to watch the first episode.
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snowkatt: usually its the city on the edge of forever balance of terror and the trouble with tribbles that are widely regarded as tos's best

the doomsday machine is moby dick in space
and tos had to work with a miniscule budget and 1960's special effects a lot of these special effects look static and contrived these days

oh and for those who are wondering
babylon 5 had an estimated budget of 900,000 per episode
City on the Edge of Forever is bit a too tear jerky for my taste.

And I think McCoy was overracting.
Post edited June 13, 2015 by Elmofongo
^thats just the consensus its not my personal taste
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snowkatt: ^thats just the consensus its not my personal taste
Back on topic. Watching Night Terrors in TNG.

Any good?
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Elmofongo: Back on topic. Watching Night Terrors in TNG.

Any good?
eehh its okay
not terific but not the worst either its not brothers or chain of command but what is ?

its not sub rosa either ( thankfully )

no comment btw on my awnser about your budget question ?

i find 12.5 million per episode and 18 to 27 million for band of brothers and pacific ridiculously high
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Elmofongo: Back on topic. Watching Night Terrors in TNG.

Any good?
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snowkatt: eehh its okay
not terific but not the worst either its not brothers or chain of command but what is ?

its not sub rosa either ( thankfully )

no comment btw on my awnser about your budget question ?

i find 12.5 million per episode and 18 to 27 million for band of brothers and pacific ridiculously high
Band of Brothers and The Pacific completely crossed the line of being a tv show to being just a really long movie.