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General discussion!!SCIENCE!! Gaming on Winows 8.1 Tablet(30 posts)(30 posts)
(30 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 28, 2015
Interesting experiment. I have an Asus VivoTab Note 8, and that has a Wacom stylus, which can help with selection as well as right-click, although it's not a perfect solution: Broken Sword 5 went haywire when I used it (ended up playing it on Android), and RPG Maker games don't respond well to clicks.

I did buy an IPEGA 9023 Bluetooth Telescopic Controller, and while I know it works (because Pinnacle Game Profiler shows it working), I haven't played with it enough to get it to work in games. It should however help make more games playable.

In the end I just enjoy playing on Android more, with touch-tailored games. So much so that even though I bought my Windows tablet with the express mission of cutting my PC game backlog, I rarely get to it. There are enough good Android games (many converted from PC and on my backlog) that I have no shortage of what to play, and don't have to deal with the less than optimal Windows tablet experience.

Games I played to some extent (haven't finished any of them):
Yesterday: works very well.
Lilly Looking Through: some performance problems, but generally runs fine.
Sweet Lily Dreams: some problems with mouse responsiveness, so it's playable but the extra work to get it to respond makes it less fun.

Games I installed and ran, but didn't play (that is, I got to the title screen but not much further):
Broken Sword 5: cursor went haywire when used with the pen.
Batman: Arkham Asylum: wanted to try the controller with it. Didn't immediately work, and it's an annoying game to try because I have no idea how to get out of it.
The Blackwell Deception: Don't remember exactly why I didn't like it. I think it was the way the low resolution was handled. I copied it to Android and play there with AGS (which was what I wanted to do from the get-go, but wanted to see if the Windows experience would be a good enough alternative; it wasn't).
To The Moon: suffered from similar control issues that Sweet Lily Dreams has. I think I couldn't even easily get into the game.

Edit: What tablet do you have?
Post edited January 28, 2015 by ET3D
Posted January 29, 2015
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ET3D: Interesting experiment. I have an Asus VivoTab Note 8, and that has a Wacom stylus, which can help with selection as well as right-click, although it's not a perfect solution: Broken Sword 5 went haywire when I used it (ended up playing it on Android), and RPG Maker games don't respond well to clicks.

I did buy an IPEGA 9023 Bluetooth Telescopic Controller, and while I know it works (because Pinnacle Game Profiler shows it working), I haven't played with it enough to get it to work in games. It should however help make more games playable.

In the end I just enjoy playing on Android more, with touch-tailored games. So much so that even though I bought my Windows tablet with the express mission of cutting my PC game backlog, I rarely get to it. There are enough good Android games (many converted from PC and on my backlog) that I have no shortage of what to play, and don't have to deal with the less than optimal Windows tablet experience.

Games I played to some extent (haven't finished any of them):
Yesterday: works very well.
Lilly Looking Through: some performance problems, but generally runs fine.
Sweet Lily Dreams: some problems with mouse responsiveness, so it's playable but the extra work to get it to respond makes it less fun.

Games I installed and ran, but didn't play (that is, I got to the title screen but not much further):
Broken Sword 5: cursor went haywire when used with the pen.
Batman: Arkham Asylum: wanted to try the controller with it. Didn't immediately work, and it's an annoying game to try because I have no idea how to get out of it.
The Blackwell Deception: Don't remember exactly why I didn't like it. I think it was the way the low resolution was handled. I copied it to Android and play there with AGS (which was what I wanted to do from the get-go, but wanted to see if the Windows experience would be a good enough alternative; it wasn't).
To The Moon: suffered from similar control issues that Sweet Lily Dreams has. I think I couldn't even easily get into the game.

Edit: What tablet do you have?
Thanks for contributing to !!SCIENCE!! OP is updated.

I have a Dell tablet. i5 processor, 4 GB ram, integrated Intel graphics afaik. It's a laptop replacement, so these results aren't applicable to $100 tablets. Still pretty impressive IMO.

I had the same experience with Android games. There are a lot of backlog games being released for Android. KoTOR, Bard's Tale. ScummVM games. The benefits of a Windows tablet aren't enough to overcome the essential limitations of the tablet formfactor. Using it convinced me that I'm really looking for an ultrabook.
Post edited January 29, 2015 by Gilozard
Posted January 29, 2015
for science !!

your tablet is basically an ultrabook reduced to a screen
but the lowend tablets are getting more and more powerfull and its starting to get impressive

i wouldnt want one yet though

maybe in 2016
Posted January 29, 2015
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snowkatt: for science !!

your tablet is basically an ultrabook reduced to a screen
but the lowend tablets are getting more and more powerfull and its starting to get impressive

i wouldnt want one yet though

maybe in 2016
I got it instead of a laptop. Knowing what I know now, I should have just saved the money and gotten a laptop. That's life.

I don't think tablet-priced tablets are going to be capable enough until at least one more round of processors and SoCs. Or tablet makers stop charging a firstborn for more RAM. Not 2016, but probably in the next 5 years I'll be able to run these games playably on a $200 tablet.

Which is good, because I'm going to drop my current tablet sooner or later.
Posted January 29, 2015
with a bluetooth keyboard it could probably be a decent laptop wannabe ...ish

personally i coudl never switch from laptop to tablet no matter how powerfull
a complemental machine ? yes

but a replacement ? no

still i find the idea that i can play older pc games on a machine slightly bigger then a ps vita fascinating *spock eyebrow*
Posted January 29, 2015
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Gilozard: I had the same experience with Android games. There are a lot of backlog games being released for Android. KoTOR, Bard's Tale. ScummVM games. The benefits of a Windows tablet aren't enough to overcome the essential limitations of the tablet formfactor.
I don't think it's really the limitations of the form factor as much as trying to run software designed for keyboard/mouse on a tablet. Just a bit of control massaging and it becomes a lot more enjoyable. That's why Android games play better, or adding a controller can help.

(I'm not saying that the tablet form factor doesn't have limitations, any form factor has, but it's really more the Windows tablet ecosystem that's still not there, rather than tablets in general.)

Anyway, this looks like a pretty powerful tablet, so enjoy. I prefer smaller ones, and was thinking I'll get a 8" tablet once Cherry Trail is released and maybe some of these come with 4GB of RAM, but now that I bought a new Android tablet (and Baldur's Gate II) I figure I'll wait as long as I can on that, and just play on Android.
Posted January 29, 2015
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Gilozard: I had the same experience with Android games. There are a lot of backlog games being released for Android. KoTOR, Bard's Tale. ScummVM games. The benefits of a Windows tablet aren't enough to overcome the essential limitations of the tablet formfactor.
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ET3D: I don't think it's really the limitations of the form factor as much as trying to run software designed for keyboard/mouse on a tablet. Just a bit of control massaging and it becomes a lot more enjoyable. That's why Android games play better, or adding a controller can help.

(I'm not saying that the tablet form factor doesn't have limitations, any form factor has, but it's really more the Windows tablet ecosystem that's still not there, rather than tablets in general.)

Anyway, this looks like a pretty powerful tablet, so enjoy. I prefer smaller ones, and was thinking I'll get a 8" tablet once Cherry Trail is released and maybe some of these come with 4GB of RAM, but now that I bought a new Android tablet (and Baldur's Gate II) I figure I'll wait as long as I can on that, and just play on Android.
Having the interface and UI share a flat screen places limitations on gameplay and UI complexity that screen/controller setups don't have. Android games play better simply because they're designed around those limitations, but I think suffer in complexity.

It's a reasonably powerful tablet but a pretty bad laptop, tbh. I'm definitely getting a real laptop sometime in the next year. This tablet is neither fish nor fowl. Not effective at the things I actually want it to do.

8'' tablets will have the advantage that they are effective at lower resolutions, and need less power to run the display. My integrated graphics are a generation or 2 old, so I suspect that the next round of tiny tablets could be used for some gaming. It's very interesting to see where computing will go.
Posted January 29, 2015
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Gilozard: Android games play better simply because they're designed around those limitations, but I think suffer in complexity.
I don't think they suffer in complexity as much as make control a little more cumbersome. I mean, KOTOR is still KOTOR and BG is still BG. They are complex games. It's just that you don't have keyboard control or right-click functionality, or the accuracy of a mouse cursor, so the UI needs to compensate for that. That can make the game a little more cumbersome to play, but in my experience not significantly so. At least in my case, I enjoy the Android ports (haven't tried BG2 yet, but I did play some Shadowrun Returns, and although that was designed with tablets in mind from the get-go, it's still a complex game). That can't be said about playing Windows games directly, but it's possible that it's just because I haven't tried enough. I did buy GestureWorks Gameplay, and that should help bring touch controls to quite a few PC games. I just haven't tried it, because playing on Android is just easier.

tl;dr: Tablets do have control limitations, but in my experience PC games tailored for them can still be enjoyable.

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Gilozard: so I suspect that the next round of tiny tablets could be used for some gaming.
Even the current gen does a reasonable job at that. There's need to turn resolution and options way down, and you don't get a high frame rate, but people have played Half Life 2, Fallout 3, Batman: AA, Civ 5 and many more games on Bay Trail tablets.
Posted February 20, 2015
Evoland: Installs quickly, which is nice. Navigating the start menu is possible. But after starting a new game there's no way to move. Also, there's apparently no way to run it in windowed mode. The charms bar comes up, which is the only way I was able to get out.

Windows needs to mimic all the other touchscreen OSes and keep input options available regardless of the program.
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ET3D: tl;dr: Tablets do have control limitations, but in my experience PC games tailored for them can still be enjoyable.

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Gilozard: so I suspect that the next round of tiny tablets could be used for some gaming.
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ET3D: Even the current gen does a reasonable job at that. There's need to turn resolution and options way down, and you don't get a high frame rate, but people have played Half Life 2, Fallout 3, Batman: AA, Civ 5 and many more games on Bay Trail tablets.
Enjoyable, definitely. But a single mode of input limits options more than 2 modes. When that single mode is imprecise, the problem is even worse. That's compounded by needing to handle display and input in the same space, vs having dedicated devices for each. Some of the issues with tablet games are just a matter of design, but there are also simply fundamental limitations that come with a single touchscreen handling both display and interaction.

I hadn't heard that people were getting fames to run on the latest 8 inchers. Thanks for sharing.
Post edited February 20, 2015 by Gilozard
Posted February 20, 2015
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Gilozard: Evoland: Installs quickly, which is nice. Navigating the start menu is possible. But after starting a new game there's no way to move. Also, there's apparently no way to run it in windowed mode. The charms bar comes up, which is the only way I was able to get out.
I'd suggest buying Gestureworks Gameplay. It allows you to create onscreen controls for games, and you can download ones for Evoland.

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Gilozard: Some of the issues with tablet games are just a matter of design, but there are also simply fundamental limitations that come with a single touchscreen handling both display and interaction.
There's no perfect control scheme. Consoles are also quite limited, and even for PC some games are better on controller. So yes, of course touchscreen is a limitation. It's also one of the more flexible methods of control, and the one capable of the most intuitive controls.
Posted February 20, 2015
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Gilozard: Evoland: Installs quickly, which is nice. Navigating the start menu is possible. But after starting a new game there's no way to move. Also, there's apparently no way to run it in windowed mode. The charms bar comes up, which is the only way I was able to get out.
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ET3D: I'd suggest buying Gestureworks Gameplay. It allows you to create onscreen controls for games, and you can download ones for Evoland.

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Gilozard: Some of the issues with tablet games are just a matter of design, but there are also simply fundamental limitations that come with a single touchscreen handling both display and interaction.
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ET3D: There's no perfect control scheme. Consoles are also quite limited, and even for PC some games are better on controller. So yes, of course touchscreen is a limitation. It's also one of the more flexible methods of control, and the one capable of the most intuitive controls.
The whole point of this testing is to see which games work well natively on a Win tablet. Not buying extra programs just to run games. If I was OK with that, I'd start using Steam.

Yeah, all control schemes have their limitations. But badly designed PC ports aren't relevant to this discussion - that's just a game not using control schemes. Comparing touchscreens to mouse/keyboard to controller is comparing the innate qualities of the control schemes themselves.

I find display + input touchscreens highly unintuitive. Programs need to choose between visual crowding or hiding everything away in menus. Plus the inability to match mouse/keyboard for precision. Perhaps at some point touchscreens will be come better at managing detailed input, but human fingers aren't likely to shrink significantly.

Part of the problem is that designers haven't really settled on how to design good touchscreen UIs for games, whereas there's a pretty good understanding of how good mouse/keyboard and controller UIs. That will improve over time. I desperately hope the Windows Phone random-jumble-of-squares UI is left by the wayside, though. I honestly can't understand how something so visually busy and flat could have come out of a sane design department.

User interaction is such a YMMV field, circumstances and preferences vary so widely. Hopefully we start seeing more 2-in-1 formfactors that let people choose the appropriate input methods. I'd pay PC prices for a decent Windows phablet with an integrated keyboard.
Post edited February 20, 2015 by Gilozard
Posted February 20, 2015
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Gilozard: I find display + input touchscreens highly unintuitive.
That's because you have a lot of experience with another control scheme. Let a small child play with a tablet game vs. keyboard / mouse / controller, it will be obvious how much more intuitive it is.

And Gestureworks Gameplay is Steam only currently, I didn't realise that was an issue. I think it's somewhat unfair to judge tablet gaming trying to play games designed for mouse / keyboard without trying to get the most out of the controls. You wish for an integrated keyboard but you're not willing to try a piece of software to make things more playable. Besides, adding a keyboard, mouse or controller to a tablet is a easy, so the choice of input methods is there.
Posted February 20, 2015
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Gilozard: I find display + input touchscreens highly unintuitive.
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ET3D: That's because you have a lot of experience with another control scheme. Let a small child play with a tablet game vs. keyboard / mouse / controller, it will be obvious how much more intuitive it is.

And Gestureworks Gameplay is Steam only currently, I didn't realise that was an issue. I think it's somewhat unfair to judge tablet gaming trying to play games designed for mouse / keyboard without trying to get the most out of the controls. You wish for an integrated keyboard but you're not willing to try a piece of software to make things more playable. Besides, adding a keyboard, mouse or controller to a tablet is a easy, so the choice of input methods is there.
There are several ways I could respond to this, but they all boil down to:

1) UX design is specifically about user preference. There is no such thing as 'being unfair' when evaluating input designs. It is literally about a user's subjective experience.
2) The point of this thread is to explore the compatibility of old games with new hardware. If you're not interested in that, why are you here again?
3) No serious UX designer disputes the fact that touchscreen-only input places severe constraints on program design. You yourself rely on this fact when you say things like 'unfair to judge tablet gaming trying to play games designed for mouse/keyboard'. But as soon as I say it, you start arguing. Why?

Also - this is a specifically DRM-free store. There's a significant fraction, and perhaps a majority, of the customer base who do have significant problems with Steam.
Posted February 21, 2015
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Gilozard: 1) UX design is specifically about user preference. There is no such thing as 'being unfair' when evaluating input designs. It is literally about a user's subjective experience.
2) The point of this thread is to explore the compatibility of old games with new hardware. If you're not interested in that, why are you here again?
If you had a desktop PC, installed a game and then posted "I could navigate the menu with the keyboard, but couldn't play much without a mouse", is that a fair evaluation of what the hardware is capable of?

If your intention is to evaluate how the hardware handles games, add a mouse and keyboard and evaluate that. if your intention is to evaluate touchscreen controls, add software which enables it in games. If your intention is to evaluate how playable games with keyboard controls are when there's no keyboard or keyboard emulation, I don't much see the point of that. That's why I said it was unfair. Perhaps I should have used "silly" instead.
Posted February 26, 2015
EVOLAND: I was able to bring the onscreen keyboard up through the charms bar. Swipe in from the right, select the keyboard, and select the option to bring up the onscreen keyboard.

This let me play the game. Unfortunately, Evoland doesn't react to the keyboard presence, so the keyboard covers half of the game screen. I died several times and eventually gave up.

VERDICT: Need a physical keyboard for this game. No workarounds.
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General discussion!!SCIENCE!! Gaming on Winows 8.1 Tablet(30 posts)(30 posts)
(30 posts)