It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
randomuser.833: After all those years Linux is still a fragmented mess because of fanboyism. If somebody who wants to start with Linux is asking 3 Linux users, they will tell him to use 4 different brances, because they are the best, but only with one of 6 different GUIs, because only then they are the best next thing since sliced bread.
avatar
JacobSlatter: If the people working on all them distros actually came together and worked to make one decent distro that could do near everything users needed then maybe linux would have a shot. Maybe.
Who gets to decide what such a single "decent distro" should have, so that all users would consider it decent?

What if someone still disagrees, will the others prevent them from doing another distro that is even more decent in their opinion?

I don't really see the wealth of distros and/or desktop environments as a problem, they are different ideas of what is good. It doesn't really matter that much which you use, pick a popular one if you want to be sure. You can always swap to another later if you want.


BTW, sometimes Windows is also a quite hard to configure and figure out. Today I got this video to my YT feed about hardening Windows 10/11 security:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW69MisrsWk

So I followed those instructions first on my Windows 10 Pro installation. Wow it felt quite complicated, sometimes having to go to Powershell to run some command to check and change something, then back to e.g. policy editor, downloading some policy files for Powershell 7.0 just in case, and if you have a Home version of Windows, you have to use some third-party utility to change the policy settings. At least it didn't tell me to go edit registry so that is a positive.

The changes seemed quite plausible, basically restricting what malware could do in Powershell. It is still quite interesting one has to jump through quite many hoops to make those changes. Well, now it is done to one of my Windows 10/11 PCs, three more to go...
Post edited July 15, 2024 by timppu
avatar
timppu: I don't really see the wealth of distros and/or desktop environments as a problem, they are different ideas of what is good.
The problem with the fragmentation is that it makes it harder to get more of the general public to try linux out and then adopt it.. To use the ice cream example someone else brought up, this is less a variety of flavors and more like one person thinks there should be an even number of chips in mint chip while someone else thinks the numbering should be odd. Linux development needs less autism and more cohesion.
avatar
timppu: BTW, sometimes Windows is also a quite hard to configure and figure out.
If one uses command line it can be. Thankfully there are graphical front ends for so many things.

avatar
timppu: At least it didn't tell me to go edit registry so that is a positive.
Sometimes I like to tinker with the registry. Not to change anything necessarily but to just explore it a bit. It is pretty sizable.
Post edited July 15, 2024 by JacobSlatter
avatar
Cavalary: People who actually care can't afford to settle (or agree).
avatar
JacobSlatter: Are they developing for everyone that's interested or just themselves? I would like to think that if someone is passionate about something they could make a few compromises and still feel as passionate as before or close to it.
Small groups think that they can make an existing version "better" (read they want something the majority of the people of the original branch does not want) so they start a new Destri.
And if enough people are found to support it, they will continue.

There are even basic Linux variants you can custom build for your own desire. So creating another offshoot is less something for your very personal desire but more the thinking the thing you have changed about the major branch will bring the much better Linux to the world - or something like that.

I mean, there are some Linux branches that are special need stuff. For example the Raspery Linux or embedded systems or special server systems.
And I'd argue as a company supported (read you can have support contracts as a company with another company) and for company usage build Linux Suse Enterprise got its usage.

But talking about end user Linuxes - add something here, leave out something there, use another GUI because the other ones are "shit". You are special and everyone should have your taste (I know, a bit mean).

But just think about how often Windows Users had to adapt to kinda different user interfaces over the past decades.
And there are always 3rd party tools to restore the changed parts of the GUI basically back to Windows 2000 standard.
And to not hit hard by the EU, EU Windows is slightly different when it comes to some details.
It is still one Windows. And while named differently, a Windows server is not that different to a Windows 10 or 11. It just got some stuff you don't need one a non sever machine.

If Windows would be like Linux every GUI change would create at last 2 different branches and there would be branches for basically every MS default software left in or left out (MS Store, Edge and so on) and every combination of those things you can imagine.
While in reality, you deal with the new GUI or you change it to your desire, you use the MS programs, or you ignore them or you even uninstall them (or at last make them shut up).
You are ok with all the data gathering, or you make Windows shut up as hard it is possible (and a lot of things are possible)
You need 16 bit programs for a reason, you don't start another Windows Branch, you use a whatever program can make 16bit stuff work.
It is not that Windows users suck up everything MS throws at them (MS killed to much stuff already users simply ignored), but they are used to adapt to whatever "great idea" MS got next as well as they are used to adapting Windows to their needs. It works and if you want some customization - you just do it.


Linux - start a new branch.


And I was remembering Mint now.
While Ubuntu threw out all closed source stuff Mint basically added some closed source stuff (mostly media codecs afaik) - but as it seems they didn't wanted the same closed source stuff Debian (remember, Ubuntu offshoot started to get a Debian without closed source stuff) used, neither did they try to get Debian to add the closed source stuff they wanted (because Debian seems to have no problem with closed source it might have worth to try first...) - nah, lets start something new.
And so Linux Mint as another offshoot of Ubuntu and that way of Debian was born, kinda bringing back stuff from Debian that was excluded with Ubuntu.

Disclaimer, schrotend down the story and wrote it with a good amount of mocking. But yeah - that is how it works.


And now for some people Debian is the next best thing since sliced bread, for some it is Ubuntu, for some it is Kubuntu and for some it is Mint.
And depending on the person for some Mint and/or Debian can be an abomination because of adding closed source stuff (Suse as a very different main branch is something everyone from the Debian branch can hate on the other hand).

Wellcome to the Linux world...


I mean, I posted the Linux "tree".
A good part of the branches have died, but do not expect it to be consolidated so Linux can start to be any kind of alternative to Windows on a large scale...

If that happens, it only happens because Microsoft is switching Windows to the Linux Core...
avatar
randomuser.833: But just think about how often Windows Users had to adapt to kinda different user interfaces over the past decades.
Yeah like that awful windows vista rendition.


avatar
randomuser.833: It is not that Windows users suck up everything MS throws at them (MS killed to much stuff already users simply ignored), but they are used to adapt to whatever "great idea" MS got next as well as they are used to adapting Windows to their needs. It works and if you want some customization - you just do it.

Linux - start a new branch.
This is what I was getting at. A number of linux developers and users want linux to be the next big thing but the way they go about it ends up working against that goal somewhat.

avatar
randomuser.833: Wellcome to the Linux world...
Can I visit jurassic park instead? Thanks for the reply it was interesting to read.
avatar
timppu: Who gets to decide what such a single "decent distro" should have, so that all users would consider it decent?

What if someone still disagrees, will the others prevent them from doing another distro that is even more decent in their opinion?

[...]

BTW, sometimes Windows is also a quite hard to configure and figure out. Today I got this video to my YT feed about hardening Windows 10/11 security:

[Powershell]
Why not adding a choice then?
Why didn't the Debian/Ubuntu guys added a choice when you install Debian, if you want closed source stuff or not.
Why didn't they do so for the closed source Mint got.

Because "my idea is better".

I'm not so sure if Powershell can make use of many of that stuff without being started in admin mode...

And I would argue, the moment a powershell script can be run on your system from the outside you lost anyway and everything has been breached already.
It would be a start to set UAC to max and not default.
You just compared going very advanced in windows to "install Linux".
Yeah, should we start talking about Linux install if you want to hardcore harden it without a graphical user interface?
Post edited July 15, 2024 by randomuser.833
avatar
PookaMustard: But I can't install KDE Plasma on an Android phone, or run Thunderbird on it.
avatar
EverNightX: I don't own a smartphone but...

https://news.softpedia.com/news/you-can-now-install-kde-s-plasma-mobile-on-your-android-smartphone-here-s-how-519792.shtml

Thunderbird: https://play.google.com/store/apps/dev?id=8696262544613553264&hl=en_US&pli=1

Not that your argument makes any sense anyway. Any Linux setup can be locked down to disallow things. That doesn't make it not Linux based.
Read the two links you provided. The first link involves images for specific smartphones, and the first method straight up replaces the entire Android OS with something else, that's closer to a traditional Linux thingy. If this doesn't prove that Android is not Linux despite using a modified Linux kernel, I don't know what will.

And the second link is just a developer page, the actual app is included within it: K-9 Mail. It's not Thunderbird, period. There are efforts and even a collab with Mozilla to turn it into something closer to Thunderbird, but it's not the Thunderbird I have installed on my Debian right now. I know because I also have K-9 installed on my Android.

With these two links, you have proven my point that you can't just run anything Linux on an Android smartphone. Because Android is not Linux. The kernel is based on and modified from Linux, but that's where the similarities end. You can say Android is a win for the Linux kernel, but I don't think you can say Android is a win for Linux in the vaguest of terms.
Post edited July 16, 2024 by PookaMustard
Not sure what I was going to encounter in this thread, but thanks for the chuckle folks.

also; Anyone in the linux crowd know how to instill this line-ux thingy into Windows95?





































.








xD
avatar
Cavalary: People who actually care can't afford to settle (or agree).
avatar
JacobSlatter: Are they developing for everyone that's interested or just themselves? I would like to think that if someone is passionate about something they could make a few compromises and still feel as passionate as before or close to it.
Many may well be working mainly, if not for themselves, for their interests, and the community happens to benefit from that work.
And no, you can't remain passionate if you're forced to compromise.

But about "a few compromises", how do you reconcile the very concept of a generic Linux that should be everything for everyone with those who want a lightweight, streamlined, simpler version? Or those who want all the choices with those wanting more decisions made by devs and more of a set and forget style? Or those who want stable, tested, long-term builds with those who want to be on the bleeding edge? Or those who want it to feel "at home" if coming from a newer Windows, older Windows, Mac, and those who want it to be a different thing entirely?

Later edit: Actually, doesn't a "generic" Linux exist already? Just look at what GOG displays for Linux versions, just Ubuntu. But you yourself aren't using it, instead choosing something else, right? So even you wanted the choice to not be forced with the "generic" distro...
avatar
randomuser.833:
Nice piece.
And I think I'd underline something from that post, which is that in case of Windows, the users are expected to be just users, with the dev calling the shots and the users just consuming the result. In case of Linux, the users tend to be expected to also be devs. And some are, which is both what allows Linux to exist and what generates all this mess, as you explained.

But I'd say that may be more of a problem than choice paralysis itself. The expectation not be just a user, at least if you have clear demands. So you have computer users, not devs, or at least those who have no interest to get involved in developing their OS in any way, who want to move away from Windows because it doesn't suit their needs (anymore) and they want something that does. And they hear that it may be found in Linux, maybe just because there's so much choice, so there's an expectation to find something that really suits them. And then they ask about it... And get told to build it themselves, or that they shouldn't want or don't need what they say they do. And then they fail to see the difference, it's still something that doesn't suit them, but at least if they stick with Windows they won't need to relearn how to use a computer and they're not expected to also work for the "privilege".

I'd say that it could go quite a long way if this abundance of choice would actually be used as an asset, and whenever someone wonders what would suit them, they could actually be helped to the distro that's closest to what they want instead of ending up in the middle of a battle between fans of various other ones and those who blame them for wanting what they want and/or for not being able or willing to do the work to get to what they want after starting from a, shall we say, less than ideal point.
Post edited July 16, 2024 by Cavalary
avatar
PookaMustard: you have proven my point that you can't just run anything Linux on an Android smartphone.
You can't "just" run 100% of Linux software on ANY distro out of the box. There's libraries etc that need to be present.

<Sigh>, it's a different form factor. Obviously you need software to be modified for mobile controls vs mouse/keyboard if you run on a phone vs a desktop. That has nothing to do with the OS using Linux.

Linux = the Linux Kernel, which is what Android uses. It is the core and the most important bit on any platform. Everything else is just additional software which you can take/leave to make up a software distribution.

But whatever, if you want to convince yourself Android has nothing to do with Linux so be it. I don't care.

Certainly it is POSIX-like, as is MacOS, which is really just tweaked FreeBSD same as Android is tweaked Linux. Thats what smartphones run. No smartphone runs Windows anything in 2024. And that's the computer device most people use. Not desktops.
Post edited July 16, 2024 by EverNightX
avatar
BreOl72: Tried it years ago.
Was not convinced.
Will not try again.
End of story.
Might as well use windows with the out of box experience.
Hey all. Please keep the discussion on the topic or don't participate. Going off-topic or engaging in some personal entanglements will result in the thread being locked. Thanks.
avatar
Cavalary: Many may well be working mainly, if not for themselves, for their interests, and the community happens to benefit from that work.
And no, you can't remain passionate if you're forced to compromise.
I meant smaller compromises and willing ones instead of forced, like when several people come together to work on something they are all passionate about.

avatar
Cavalary: But about "a few compromises", how do you reconcile the very concept of a generic Linux that should be everything for everyone with those who want a lightweight, streamlined, simpler version? Or those who want all the choices with those wanting more decisions made by devs and more of a set and forget style? Or those who want stable, tested, long-term builds with those who want to be on the bleeding edge? Or those who want it to feel "at home" if coming from a newer Windows, older Windows, Mac, and those who want it to be a different thing entirely?
Why not make a default base of sorts and then develop modules people can download and plug into it or create settings for said base which users could switch on or off to achieve the look and feel each of them wanted without needing all those distros?
avatar
randomuser.833: You just compared going very advanced in windows to "install Linux".
Where did I make such a comparison?

Installing Linux isn't any harder than installing Windows from scratch. I've done both numerous times, and in both cases it normally is:

1. Make a bootable USB media (with Windows 10/11 you use e.g. the MS Media Creation Tool, with Linux any of the various utilities to write an ISO image to a bootable USB drive; in Windows it could be e.g. "Etcher" or "Rufus" or various others, in Linux there is probably already some "USB Image Writer" already installed that you can use for the task).

2. You boot from that USB media, and after that it is pretty much just clicking the mouse "next next next done".

When it comes to my specific example, similar Linux instructions would have probably been something like:

1. As a sudo user, edit the file /etc/sshd.conf

2. In this and that line of the config file, change this option to "disabled", and save the config file.

3. Reload the relevant service with "sudo systemctl reload <name of the service>", or reboot your system.

Much easier to follow than "go to this system policy tool and under this you find that under which there is that under which there is this, check its properties and change "enabled" to "disabled" and save changes".

Quite often Windows instructions still rely on editing registry manually, like the other day when I was googling for instructions on how to disable Windows Defender permanently. If I take a similar example from Linux, it would have been to e.g. edit the config file /etc/selinux/config and change the word "enforced" to either "permissive" or "disabled" (depending if you want to disable SELinux altogether, or let it still log down any security violations, but not try to prevent them from happening). If you are using GUI, there possibly is also some graphical SELInux tool which allows you to the same, but it is quite simple in the terminal too.

If you want to compare something mundane like changing the brightness of your screen or to connect to a different wifi hotspot, those simple things are just as easy in both Windows and Linux, just click on your internet connection icon on the taskbar and select the wifi hotspot you want to connect to. No real difference in the mundane everyday tasks.

The difference comes with the more advanced configuration stuff, and there to my experience Linux tends to be actually simpler and more straightforward, at least if you have to google on instructions on how to change something. In Windows side the extra complication often comes from Microsoft trying to discourage or even prevent you from doing something; Linux trusts your judgement more.
Post edited July 16, 2024 by timppu
avatar
randomuser.833: I mean, there are some Linux branches that are special need stuff. For example the Raspery Linux or embedded systems or special server systems.
I am often using RPi4 with Raspberry Linux (64bit) which apparently is based on Debian, and the experience doesn't really differ from using e.g. Linux Mint XFCE on my x86 laptop. At least I don't get any feel, as an end user, that the Raspberry Linux OS would be "special need", besides of course running on an ARM CPU device instead of an Intel/AMD CPU, but as an end-user I don't see the difference. I use the same or similar applications on both, install them the same way etc.

Using that logic, Windows has "branches that are special need stuff too", like Windows 11 ARM that runs on the new Snapdragon X Elite laptops. Does that pose some problem to Windows users, too many choices of Windows branches or something?

avatar
randomuser.833: But talking about end user Linuxes - add something here, leave out something there, use another GUI because the other ones are "shit". You are special and everyone should have your taste (I know, a bit mean).
Is that really a thing? Most distros offer several different default desktop environments to use, like Linux Mint offers Cinnamon, XFCE or MATE by default, and I presume you can use other desktop environments too if you want, just replace it later.

I personally tend to use XFCE because I like its simplicity and small memory footprint (since I tend to run Linux (Mint) also on older PCs that might e.g. have less memory, and generally I don't see the point of wasting precious RAM to something stupid like how the GUI looks and animates); someone else might like to use e.g. Cinnamon, MATE or some other because reasons, maybe they feel XFCE is too plain and not colorful enough, I don't know nor care.

I generally am otherwise pretty agnostic about GUIs ("desktop environments" in Linux). As long as it doesn't get too much on my way and lets me run my programs, ok then. I used e.g. GNOME on Rocky Linux 9 before, partly because it was the default option and partly because I wanted to test something new. It sure felt different from Gnome, how the desktop works (e.g. you can't put shortcut icons on the desktop, different philosophy there clearly), but I got accustomed to it after awhile, doing things a bit differently than in XFCE. I've heard GNOME resembles a bit how e.g. Apple Mac does things, not sure as I've never used Macs but apparently Mac users like their design decisions, even if they resemble GNOME.

The reason I didn't like GNOME that much in the end were technical, ie. it was unable or poor at changing the scaling of the desktop, for instance if I wanted to change the scale from 100% to 125% to make everything a bit bigger for my weary eyes on that small laptop screen. Apparently it was something that GNOME didn't handle well at least back then, while e.g. XFCE seemed to achieve it better. So it was good then I wasn't really forced to use GNOME then, if I found quirks I didn't like.

Now, when it comes to Windows 10/11 GUIs... I think they actually are still quite bad, messy with they split-brain design where some options are behind the classic "Control Panel" while others are in the newer format; some options are both (but the more advanced stuff tends to be behind the classic Control Panel items). That is just obnoxious and confusing design, feels like some kind of interim solution until Microsoft can finalize their design towards the new user interface. I was a bit surprised actually that Windows 11 appeared to be just as messy in this department, as Windows 10, not sure if there was any advancement in that department?

That messy split-brain Windows 10/11 GUI actually does get in my way from time to time, but I've learned to cope with it. If there was an optional supported GUI that was cleaner, I would probably use it instead.

The only positive thing I can say about Windwows 10/11 GUI is that it isn't as bad as Windows 8/8.1 GUIs. which really were abhorrent. WTF was MS thinking there, other than trying to push all PC users to MS touchscreen devices? I didn't want to try to even cope with 8/8.1 GUI atl all, but stayed in Windows 7 until Windows 10 finally fixed Windows 8/8.1 poor designs, for the most part.

I still miss many things from Windows 7 GUI, like subdirectories in the Start Menu, Why did MS have to get rid of those? E.g. I recall in Windows 7 all my GOG games would get installed under a common GOG.com subfolder within the Start Menu, which was nice. In Windows 8 and later, not anymore. I just have to cope with that unwanted feature now because Microsoft forces it to me.

Or, in Windows 10 all the 7-zip context menus were easily available behind a single right mouse click. In Windows 11, not anymore, now they are hidden behind "More options" or something like that, which slows down my 7-zip operations with needed extra clicks. Another GUI change that I hate, but Microsoft forces me to use. (Maybe there is a way to change this behavior, but at least it isn't obvious.)

If there was a different official Windows 11 GUI available that changed that, I would rather use it instead.

avatar
randomuser.833: But just think about how often Windows Users had to adapt to kinda different user interfaces over the past decades.
Quite often, seeing how wildly different e.g. Windows 7, 8, 8.1, 10 and 11 are to each other, in various ways. And the main problem is that MS doesn't really give us a choice, if we don't like some of the changes.

Also you forget that even Home and Pro versions tend to be different in some ways, like if you want to use the Policy Editor. That is why the "Windows 10/11 Powerscript security hardening"-instructions I linked earlier had separate instructions for Home and Pro versions, where in Home you had to download and install a separate tool to edit the policies.

avatar
randomuser.833: And there are always 3rd party tools to restore the changed parts of the GUI basically back to Windows 2000 standard.
Unsupported by MS, which means you don't know for sure if they will complicate or even be unable to use them anymore with some future Windows feature update.

These third-party utilities which change the Windows GUI can always be a bit problematic in the long run. I used to use TeraCopy at least in Windows 7 as it offerent some good features like checksum tests for the copied files, but in the end I uninstalled it and stopped using it because its changes to context menus got broken somehow, I don't recall exactly but some problems came in the long run and I thought it was better to stop using it for now. Especially as it wouldn't naturally get any updates either when I ran Windows update (that may have been what broke it in the long run, I would have had to remember to update it separately from time to time).

avatar
randomuser.833: If Windows would be like Linux every GUI change would create at last 2 different branches and there would be branches for basically every MS default software left in or left out (MS Store, Edge and so on) and every combination of those things you can imagine.
I have no idea what you are trying to say there ("GUI change", what is that, and why would it create "2 different branches" of something?), but if Windows was more like Linux, then I could at least freely choose from a few different GUI options (e.g. a classic Windows 7 GUI, which I'd probably want to use for now), and they would all be supported by MS as well, and receive updates whenever you run Windows Update.

I would see that as a welcome change, and I wouldn't have to cope with the negative GUI changes in Windows versions past 7. Or alternatively, if there was some lightweight Windows 11 GUI I could choose, I would probably use it at least on PCs which have less RAM, just like I prefer to use XFCE in Linux due to its low memory footprint and simplicity.

avatar
randomuser.833: You need 16 bit programs for a reason, you don't start another Windows Branch, you use a whatever program can make 16bit stuff work.
If you want to e.g. run some 32bit stuff in your 64bit Linux, you install the needed dependencies, not "start a new branch". Here's and old example:

https://askubuntu.com/questions/454253/how-to-run-32-bit-app-in-ubuntu-64-bit

(I don't know if the example of "running 16bit stuff in Linux" is a valid case, I am unaware of some 16bit Linux stuff Linux users would want and need to run; unless you mean e.g. MS-DOS games, for which there is DOSBox for Linux.)

I don't know why your examples seem so odd, things that don't really happen in real life?
Post edited July 16, 2024 by timppu
avatar
timppu: (I don't know if the example of "running 16bit stuff in Linux" is a valid case, I am unaware of some 16bit Linux stuff Linux users would want and need to run; unless you mean e.g. MS-DOS games, for which there is DOSBox for Linux.)
There's no 16bit stuff in Linux. Linux was originally made for 32bit PCs. There never was a Linux that'd run on 16bit hardware.
Post edited July 16, 2024 by maxleod