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General discussionIs GOG getting lapse on it's DRM-Free Policy?(77 posts)(77 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 05, 2019
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DetouR6734: Two games i've encountered so far, that both connect out on startup and will both crash if it's blocked by the firewall.

Kingdoms & Castles

Rise of Industry

Now this is seriously starting to irk me, Kingdoms & Castles was a recent development (Jan) and it was never an issue prior to a patch sometime around then. It's not DRM as such, but it basically acts like it, as connecting out should never be a requirement unless you're wanting to play online.
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AB2012: It may be due to Unity Engine telemetry as other have said. However from what I've seen, the GOG versions of Bioshock 1-2 (made in Unreal Engine 2) with Galaxy integration have a 10-11s delay in starting up if blocked via Firewall whilst the DRM-Free Humble version (same game, same version) starts instantly. Others have noticed the same thing including on both the Classic & Remastered versions (Unreal 3 Engine) apparently due to something (possible Galaxy related) wanting Internet access through a firewall here:-
https://www.gog.com/forum/bioshock_series/slow_startup_time_on_both_bioshock_remastered_titles

I think weak / slow "fallback code" in the event of no Internet (or whitelisted Firewall) is something GOG should definitely improve as to me, DRM-Free = it should work offline and startup at least not slower than DRM'd titles, period. Not 'um, uh, have you tried disabling your firewall to get our offline game to work'?...
If the game is having trouble with one's firewall/hardware/etc there's only so much gog can do short of asking the dev to fix it.

It'd be like if people started complaining Win 3.1. couldn't run crysis. :|

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DetouR6734: But lets face it, how many of us are offline these days? I'm not pulling the plug when i have Steam, Discord, Downloads to do, or if i simply want to browse the web while i play.. sure i can pull the plug, let it load and then reconnect it, but it still requires me turning the firewall on and off, and it still requires me remembering to do it.. there is always the case where i might forget or slip up... and do i want them to get anything from my PC? Fuck no.

I'd rather just get my money back.
Not to nag, but with you being severley worried about them getting your data/info and the level to which you protect your system, one has to quesiton what you have that needs that much protection. o.0

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IXOXI: With my DRM free approach I believe, that any application or game must not touch what is not necessary. Than we would not need to contact anybody… neither GOG support nor firewall vendor.
More and more devs are using basic kits/engines/etc to make their games and they usually don't change the defaults for most settings and as such these things happen(like OP's problem/hardware being "touched" when it need not be, etc) sadly.
Post edited August 05, 2019 by GameRager
Posted August 05, 2019
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GameRager: Not to nag, but with you being severley worried about them getting your data/info and the level to which you protect your system, one has to quesiton what you have that needs that much protection. o.0
No, one does not. It doesn't even need to be any worry, but merely not wanting it to do something (in this case, connect), and since it's on your computer, it's your choice and your right to demand that, and here on GOG it definitely shouldn't need to even try, I mean it's the very first thing listed there under why buy on the right of game pages.
Posted August 05, 2019
low rated
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GameRager: Not to nag, but with you being severley worried about them getting your data/info and the level to which you protect your system, one has to quesiton what you have that needs that much protection. o.0
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Cavalary: No, one does not. It doesn't even need to be any worry, but merely not wanting it to do something (in this case, connect), and since it's on your computer, it's your choice and your right to demand that, and here on GOG it definitely shouldn't need to even try, I mean it's the very first thing listed there under why buy on the right of game pages.
Still, one CAN question it....people are curious creatures, after all, and usually mainly spies/criminals/the overly worried need/want that level of protection & when one has such protection and isn't a gov't/business one usually wonders about why they need/want such.
Posted August 05, 2019
high rated
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DetouR6734: Two games i've encountered so far, that both connect out on startup and will both crash if it's blocked by the firewall.

Kingdoms & Castles

Rise of Industry

Now this is seriously starting to irk me, Kingdoms & Castles was a recent development (Jan) and it was never an issue prior to a patch sometime around then.

It's not DRM as such, but it basically acts like it, as connecting out should never be a requirement unless you're wanting to play online.
I know what the problem is. It's not Unity's telemetry that's to blame. I have never seen a game crash due to firewalled Unity telemetry.

The problem most likely is GOG Galaxy. Every game that has Galaxy features tries to connect to the Galaxy service on your computer to check if Galaxy is available. If the connect succeeds Galaxy features are enabled and all is well. If the connect is declined (in other words, the port is closed because the service isn't running or you don't even have Galaxy installed) Galaxy features are disabled and all is well..

But if the connection attempt get's blocked by a firewall and the game never receives an answer to its connection attempt, the game will crash. That is a very old bug that I have first seen and reported to GOG in 2015. It has been fixed by now but only quite recently. And GOG still has hundreds of installers with games that have not received an update since the fix and are still linked to the old buggy Galaxy dlls.

To get the game to run create a firewall rule that allows connects to localhost (127.0.0.1) but blocks any other connection attempts and assign the rule to the games. You'll see that they will work just fine then.
Posted August 05, 2019
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GameRager: If the game is having trouble with one's firewall/hardware/etc there's only so much gog can do short of asking the dev to fix it.

It'd be like if people started complaining Win 3.1. couldn't run crysis. :|
Bad analogy. If it is the case that the game can't stop wanting to "phone home" to something yet simultaneously has poor 'fallback code' that can't handle non responses, then it's more like saying "We removed the code that checked for the presence of the game's floppy disk, but left in the code that refuses to start the game if it doesn't detect any floppy drive present then sold it on a store that specifically boasts "Floppy-Drive Free" functionality..."

If the game is flaky enough that it only expects "there is no net connection" 'fail-state' responses but can't handle silent non-responses, then it makes it more likely that it could also cease to function for reasons other than just Firewall rules, eg, a telemetry server problem that instead of "server not found" simply silently hangs, etc. That's not DRM-Free in the sense GOG customers use or expect it and is an issue that needs patching rather than excuse making.
Posted August 05, 2019
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GameRager: If the game is having trouble with one's firewall/hardware/etc there's only so much gog can do short of asking the dev to fix it.

It'd be like if people started complaining Win 3.1. couldn't run crysis. :|
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AB2012: Bad analogy. If it is the case that the game can't stop wanting to "phone home" to something yet simultaneously has poor 'fallback code' that can't handle non responses, then it's more like saying "We removed the code that checked for the presence of the game's floppy disk, but left in the code that refuses to start the game if it doesn't detect any floppy drive present then sold it on a store that specifically boasts "Floppy-Drive Free" functionality..."

If the game is flaky enough that it only expects "there is no net connection" 'fail-state' responses but can't handle silent non-responses, then it makes it more likely that it could also cease to function for reasons other than just Firewall rules, eg, a telemetry server problem that instead of "server not found" simply silently hangs, etc. That's not DRM-Free in the sense GOG customers use or expect it and is an issue that needs patching rather than excuse making.
I agree it is a problem that needs fixing, but I don't think it's up to GOG to do so & for any to(possibly) expect them to take the blame for such is hard to swallow(for me).

Also I find this "drm" to be much less sinister/bad than stuff like Denuvo/etc...and if I found a simple fix I would do it and not say i;m not going to play X games because it has a drm-like bug in it's code that can be fixed with a tweak or two.
Post edited August 05, 2019 by GameRager
Posted August 05, 2019
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GameRager: I agree it is a problem that needs fixing, but I don't think it's up to GOG to do so & for any to(possibly) expect them to take the blame for such is hard to swallow(for me).
It depends on what's causing the issue or even whether there are multiple overlapping issues (Unity Engine Telemetry and separate Galaxy integration issues). Eg, as mentioned in post #15, I've seen Bioshock Classic (GOG) take 3-4x longer to start (even on SSD's / when cached into RAM) than the DRM-Free Humble Store version of the same version of the same game with the only difference being GOG added Galaxy integration. So even when it doesn't crash, the "I will stall for 12s if I can't go online" code definitely needs tightening up there as a separate issue as it starts up slower than even the DRM'd Steam version.

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GameRager: Also I find this "drm" to be much less sinister/bad than stuff like Denuvo/etc...and if I found a simple fix I would do it and not say i;m not going to play X games because it has a drm-like bug in it's code that can be fixed with a tweak or two.
The "simple fix" though is that which you've previously boasted you're already using - illegal cracks of Steam versions. (Or if it's a Galaxy issue, buying the DRM-Free variant of the same game from Humble / itch). That sure doesn't help GOG's bottom line...
Post edited August 05, 2019 by AB2012
Posted August 05, 2019
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GameRager: I agree it is a problem that needs fixing, but I don't think it's up to GOG to do so & for any to(possibly) expect them to take the blame for such is hard to swallow(for me).
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AB2012: It depends on what's causing the issue or even whether there are multiple overlapping issues (Unity Engine Telemetry and separate Galaxy integration issues). Eg, as mentioned in post #15, I've seen Bioshock Classic (GOG) take 3-4x longer to start (even on SSD's / when cached into RAM) than the DRM-Free Humble Store version of the same version of the same game with the only difference being GOG added Galaxy integration. So even when it doesn't crash, the "I will stall for 12s if I can't go online" code definitely needs tightening up there as a separate issue as it starts up slower than even the DRM'd Steam version.

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GameRager: Also I find this "drm" to be much less sinister/bad than stuff like Denuvo/etc...and if I found a simple fix I would do it and not say i;m not going to play X games because it has a drm-like bug in it's code that can be fixed with a tweak or two.
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AB2012: The "simple fix" though is that which you've previously boasted you're already using - illegal cracks of Steam versions. (Or if it's a Galaxy issue, buying the DRM-Free variant of the same game from Humble / itch). That sure doesn't help GOG's bottom line...
1. That is a problem that GOG should focus on fixing, then....I agree 100%.

2. I meant the one about allowing such to be whitelisted in one's firewall or the other such tricks others listed.

As for the cracks of steam versions...I meant I buy games on steam first and then keep cracks handy if steam ever goes under.....to me this is fair even if it might be illegal in general or immoral to some.
Posted August 05, 2019
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GameRager: I meant the one about allowing such to be whitelisted in one's firewall or the other such tricks others listed.
"This is a DRM-Free store but you need to go online to play some offline single-player games because they're so badly coded they will otherwise crash, so you might as well buy the Steam version" is not much of a sales pitch for GOG to sell more games...

Bottom line - when you have a problem you can either ignore it or fix it. Fixing it solves the issue and earns respect from customers. Ignoring it more often than not simply first allows then later "normalizes" the problem on a larger scale when other games start doing the same. Given GOG's Unique Selling Point is DRM-Free installers that work offline, whether "workarounds" are personally acceptable to you or not, it's simply not in GOG's long-term interest to lose that and accidentally end up encouraging people to just buy the games on Steam if they feel forced to allow offline games to go online anyway just to get them to not crash.
Post edited August 05, 2019 by AB2012
Posted August 05, 2019
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Geralt_of_Rivia: I know what the problem is. It's not Unity's telemetry that's to blame. I have never seen a game crash due to firewalled Unity telemetry.
As I mentioned there were people crashing in Deadfire that fixed it by disabling the telemetry option in the preferences I think in this case the crash occurred on trying to start a new game/load a game rather right at the start. So Unity telemetry is definitely capable of crashing a game.

The issue is a little trickier than just blocking a game causes a crash I've never encountered it personally hence my suspicion that its cause DNS is going through and that triggers a bug somewhere when it can't connect to the resolved IP, I've always blocked DNS as well. It could also be some interaction with how the firewall handles blocked addresses maybe even connected to the windows network stack just to add more variables.

I did see someone who had issues in Dragons Dogma with Galaxy due to having the DHCP service disabled but thing was I also had it disabled and had no issue. I swear that computers/networks were created to vex humanity.
Posted August 05, 2019
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DetouR6734: Two games i've encountered so far, that both connect out on startup and will both crash if it's blocked by the firewall.

Kingdoms & Castles

Rise of Industry

Now this is seriously starting to irk me, Kingdoms & Castles was a recent development (Jan) and it was never an issue prior to a patch sometime around then.

It's not DRM as such, but it basically acts like it, as connecting out should never be a requirement unless you're wanting to play online.
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Geralt_of_Rivia: I know what the problem is. It's not Unity's telemetry that's to blame. I have never seen a game crash due to firewalled Unity telemetry.

The problem most likely is GOG Galaxy. Every game that has Galaxy features tries to connect to the Galaxy service on your computer to check if Galaxy is available. If the connect succeeds Galaxy features are enabled and all is well. If the connect is declined (in other words, the port is closed because the service isn't running or you don't even have Galaxy installed) Galaxy features are disabled and all is well..

But if the connection attempt get's blocked by a firewall and the game never receives an answer to its connection attempt, the game will crash. That is a very old bug that I have first seen and reported to GOG in 2015. It has been fixed by now but only quite recently. And GOG still has hundreds of installers with games that have not received an update since the fix and are still linked to the old buggy Galaxy dlls.

To get the game to run create a firewall rule that allows connects to localhost (127.0.0.1) but blocks any other connection attempts and assign the rule to the games. You'll see that they will work just fine then.
I was considering a solution along them lines, but i hadn't got into looking into it, localhost does indeed fix the issue in both games.

Image attached game loaded fine, as you can see localhost is allowed.

The thing is, Kingdoms & Castles only started in Jan, and prior versions never had the issue, so either they fixed it and broke it again, or are just very lazy on it.

It does cause an issue if you don't know what you're doing, it only took me a few seconds to setup said rule, i admit i'm more stringent on what connects out than most people, but then i don't use anti-virus/malware/spyware etc as i have no real need to.

Localhost is acceptable, still annoys me that i have to go that route though.




What games use Galaxy "features", as i'd like to test on one to make sure it is that, i figured Aragami would, but i've just blocked that with no crash whatsoever.
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Post edited August 05, 2019 by DetouR6734
Posted August 05, 2019
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GameRager: ...
Not to nag, but with you being severley worried about them getting your data/info and the level to which you protect your system, one has to quesiton what you have that needs that much protection. o.0

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IXOXI: With my DRM free approach I believe, that any application or game must not touch what is not necessary. Than we would not need to contact anybody… neither GOG support nor firewall vendor.
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GameRager: More and more devs are using basic kits/engines/etc to make their games and they usually don't change the defaults for most settings and as such these things happen(like OP's problem/hardware being "touched" when it need not be, etc) sadly.
Generally question is different. It does not matter what I am hidden (or if I am hiding something), maybe I have photos of naked girl who lives next doors, maybe I have numbers which win next Friday lottery, maybe I have something different…. but if I am playing single player games it does not matter at all! Game should only run well not looking if I have somewhere hidden my credit card number, my internet history etc. Game is only for fun, it is why we play it!
Posted August 06, 2019
There seems to be a real problem with GOG games being b locked by firewalls, but that is NOT a DRM issue.
Posted August 06, 2019
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GameRager: I meant the one about allowing such to be whitelisted in one's firewall or the other such tricks others listed.
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AB2012: "This is a DRM-Free store but you need to go online to play some offline single-player games because they're so badly coded they will otherwise crash, so you might as well buy the Steam version" is not much of a sales pitch for GOG to sell more games...

Bottom line - when you have a problem you can either ignore it or fix it. Fixing it solves the issue and earns respect from customers. Ignoring it more often than not simply first allows then later "normalizes" the problem on a larger scale when other games start doing the same. Given GOG's Unique Selling Point is DRM-Free installers that work offline, whether "workarounds" are personally acceptable to you or not, it's simply not in GOG's long-term interest to lose that and accidentally end up encouraging people to just buy the games on Steam if they feel forced to allow offline games to go online anyway just to get them to not crash.
1st bit: True, but it's not ALL games(a mere handful at most), and they tell people usually but hide such in the fine print.

Also if it fixes the problem and the game works then it's better than not having the game at all or on steam/epic with even more actual drm built in.

To be honest i'd rather have the games here and tweak them to make them work than not have them at all. ;)


2nd bit: I agree those who can should fix it....but until then not playing GOG games or buying from GOG over such trivialities(to me) makes little sense.

Also I don't think many will stop buying over this....most people are a bit more rational and willing to make compromises to be able to enjoy some things in life.
Posted August 06, 2019
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GameRager: Also I don't think many will stop buying over this....most people are a bit more rational and willing to make compromises to be able to enjoy some things in life.
It's funny how it's always the paying customer that has to compromise..
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionIs GOG getting lapse on it's DRM-Free Policy?(77 posts)(77 posts)
(77 posts)