I so badly wanted to like these games, they should be everything I want in a blobber RPG, there are basically old-school Wizardry games. I love the graphics, whoever did the artwork for the enemy sprites is a genius (seriously, check out this if you don't believe me: http://www.mediafire.com/file/ix6og1jekf6uiij/Elminage_Gothic_-_Digital_artbook.pdf). But after playing Elminage Original for like 100 hours before switching to Gothic, I cannot bring myself to like these games. The fact that the game punishes you with time consuming trash random encounters every few steps is something I could overlook, but the lack of real RPG progression does it for me. I don't know who thought it was a good idea to have completely random levelling up but it's the worst thing I've ever seen in an RPG. Seriously, you can fight your way through countless encounters, slaying powerful monsters that can kill in a moment, and what are you rewarded with:

Your character has leveled up!
STR -1
VIT -1
LUC +1
You gained 1 hit point

Who in the hell would ever think this is a good idea. My characters are like lvl 19 and apart from more spells they are very much the same they were at lvl 1! The worst thing is also that it's very difficult to save scumm the level ups, as there's no quick save/load, you would need to close the game, start it up again, level up a single character, and if you didn't like the result, restart the game again.

Even with the mod that gives you unlimited Magic Maps (Gothic) I can't bring myself to keep playing. The fact that many quests (Events) are very difficult makes it worse. I didn't ever think I'd need a map marker but in maps where everything looks the same (same wall textures) you need that. Some things like NPCs are marked by an exclamation mark on the map, but other things have nothing at all, you you will walk onto a square and you'll get some text saying something, you would need to press F (Investigate) right on that square you get what you want, but if you miss that and go no to explore the rest of the dungeon that place will be lost to you (as everything looks the same) so the only way to find that square again would be explore the whole floor of that dungeon again, which could literally take over an hour. It seems like it's one of those games where a walkthough is mandatory, which sucks as that feels like cheating to me.

The game is full of annoying things, like how characters can only carry 10 items (yes that's right), this is a game where every second monster encounter drops a treasure chest.

I feel like these games weren't even designed by a human being, but by a robot.

Much of what you say, including stats going down at level up, applies to the old Wizardry games as well.

(One difference: The old Wizardry games did not allow you to reload if something bad, like a bad level up, were to happen. Also, those old Wizardry games would, in the right situation, randomly delete your characters, and that was not a bug (but rather the result of failed resurrection or Vitality dropping below 3).)

Edit: Why the low rating here?

Now I haven't played too much of either Elminage, but I got the impression that gear/loot drops and spells were more important for progression than your base stats.

and yeah, Experience games tend to try to copy wizardry but the progression tends to be more about killing wanted monsters or bosses so they might be more digestible.

Does the game have some sort of automapping? For a long time I was interested in trying it out, but I have nor the time or patience to map levels nowadays.

Original does, Gothic does not. Original even has a little automap in the corner while you explore, but you need an Alchemist to make an item to get it. In fact, heaps of features in this game are hidden behind alchemy. Basic things like knowing what lvl the monsters you face are, what the chances of your dice rolls being successful are, displaying where the fixed encounters are, all this SHOULD be basic features available to all players.

Gothic does, but you need to use an item or spell to reveal it. A mage can cast the spell once per level (per expedition, assuming you rest in town after each one), to a maximum of 9 times; other classes that get mage spells also get access to the spell. The item is buyable, cheap, and I believe you can carry 9 per inventory slot. (Be aware that equipment will be using some of your character's inventory slots, so you are probably not going to be carrying around 90 per character, even though that's theoretically possible.)

There's a special map you can get in an optional area of a mandatory dungeon that can be re-used. It does have a small chance to break, but there's an Alchemist spell that will repair every item in your entire party's inventory (quite a handy spell!).

Stranger of Sword City (Revisited) has full auto-mapping, if you're looking into that game.

Thank you for the info.
Personally I have no issues with a spell/map mechanic... But the idea of getting lost in a dungeon because one has lost all mana or has used all the remaining map-items does scare me. You mean that if we can't cast any more map spells we need to return to the city to regain mana, is that it?

If this mechanic is manageable then I'm sort of OK with it. But if it implies constant backtracking or getting lost in levels then the game's not for me. I don't have enough available time to be using graph paper while playing. Thanks for the reply.

As a stated in my previous comment, if the game has a terrible limited mapping mechanic, then it sure's not for me.

I played [Stranger of Sword City] for a few hours, but i eventually gave up because of the poor SAVE system. The very complicated combat system did not help either. These types of games must have a SAVE anywhere system. Making you travel all the way back to base just to save is stupid and does not value the player's time. I don't have a few hours to complete a multi-level dungeon before i can save again.

I was tempted to pick up Elminage Gothic, but after reading reviews, I decided it may not be for me, especially as someone with limited experience in blobbers. I only finished Soul Hackers and Wizardry 8 thus far.

Correct.

Aside from that 1st level mage spell (the one I described as having 1 use per level to a maximum of 9), there are some other spells that can be used in this situation:
* A 2nd level cleric spell that shows the location of dead party members in the dungeon; that spell conveniently pops up the automap
* A 4th level cleric spell that warps you out of the dungeon; unfortunately, you will forget the spell after casting. (You have a chance of relearning the spell at every level up, provided your new level is high enough to learn the spell in the first place)
* A 7th level mage spell that opens the map, allows you to change floors, and allows you to select a point on the map, at which point your party will teleport there. (Extremely handy, to the point where, if you can, it may be worth trying to get a mage to 13th level as soon as possible, and reloading the level up until you learn this particular spell. It's good enough that I suspect it might even be worth your trouble to get this spell early if you're doing a speedrun. A mage gets their first chance of learning the spell at level 13.)
* And, of course, if you get that re-usable map, and it breaks, one 5th level alchemist spell and it's repaired (along with any other items that might break after use). The solution is to take multiple trips into the dungeon. In most cases, you can walk out of the dungeon, save your game, and then go back to where you just were.

There's no point in the game that requires playing for a few hours without any opportunity to save.

I note that Saviors of Sapphire Wings allows you to save anywhere, so you might find that game more to your liking. (Also, SoSW has a spell and a common item that warp you out of the dungeon, unlike SoSC where there's no spell and the item is rare.)

(Also, don't forget that you can select a point on the automap and you'll automatically and quickly (faster than normal movement) walk there.)

Edit: Note that that last point, about selecting a point on the automap, only applies to SOSC/SOSW (and Mary Skelter), not to Elminage (though Elminage *does* have its teleport spell); this edit needed because of the forum's tendency to merge separate replies, even when it would make more sense for them to be separate.

In Elminage Gothic, I bought map items as many as I could before exploring the dungeons. They are cheap.
I felt that the map issue in the game is actually not as problematic as it seems.

Each map takes up an inventory slot.

My god, what terrible game mechanics O_o

However, after naturally consuming maps, these inventory slots became empty, and then I put treasures that get from monsters here.
And in the game, 1 slot takes 9 maps if my memory is correct, which are enough to use for exploring the entire dungeon area.