Probably due to lack of replies/posts....also why won't you jump on the wagon? Don't you also want to avoid a no lynch like the others? Just curious.

Wow, great test. I'm sure it's completely scientific and unbiased.

I take it you didn't read my post before when I specifically talked about lynch wagons, and if the answer is no I'm not surprised as most of my posts each game seem to be missed by the majority. Anyway, you should go back and read that post again.

I just re-read it....we're in alignment, it would seem, on how we place our votes and why.

That said, I would also vote for lift if he got a big enough of a wagon.

And I vehemently disagree. I don't want to play in a game with cheaters...

There was a Seinfeld episode where George Costanza denied the "Bubble Buy" a pie piece in Trivial Pursuit because he answered "Moors" and the card said "Moops", an obvious typo.

In Monopoly people can trade properties. Would you keep playing with two people who every game trade the best properties with each so they alone complete sets and win every game?

How about 2 poker players where one player will always fold if his friend is in?

There are rules and then there is also the spirit of the rules. Breaking the spirit of the rules is still cheating.

-------

@Agent - You have been going strong at Lift almost entirely on the fact he has been voting you. That's the very definition of OMGUS. Make a good case. I think this is Town Lift. Yogs seems to have that about right. Scum Lift is "less committed" to his reads. It's subtle but the difference between Scum and Town Lift is his level of commitment to his case. Scum Lift equivocates more. That said, I'm not giving Lift a complete pass. He knows people have been on to his scum game so may have tried to correct that. Although I would have expected that change to come in the form of an unseen strategy, not something this subtle.

I've ISO's all the main players at this point, and I don't see a smoking gun. I have a weird feeling about Trent, but I can't find anything in an ISO. Closest I can come to explain it seems to be that he's "too sure" Agent is Town, but that's more a feeling than a fact.

I have a similar feeling about Yogs, but I always feel that way about Yogs. If it weren't for his well-explained Lift read, I'd be more willing to vote him. Remember when I said I'm a Lift Whisperer...Yogs sees what I was seeing. I don't like some of his other reads, again seems a little "too sure" about Agent's alignment + a couple other things I can't express because the explanations hurt Town more than they are conclusive. I'd consider him if someone can make a good case on why he's a better choice than Agent.

I guess I will at least ISO the new players starting with Caesar. I'm still inclined to give them a free pass out of etiquette, there is probably a line that can be crossed where I'd vote one of them Day 1 if they truly look scummy.

1) 100% agree

2) I've stopped being wishy washy when I believe someone is Town, I've caused more problems for myself by second guessing my reads in too many games. Now any read is subject to change, but as of right now I would be hard pressed to change my read.

3) I don't subscribe to the belief that new players get a free pass Day 1. Being lynched is a great learning tool for someone, and saying being new gives them a free pass Day 1 means you are cheating them of learning. How do we know that someone who is new and gets close to lynch will not change people's mind? What if they really are scum and don't realize that they need to improve their game more because they get a free pass on Day 1? Anyone that steps into a mafia game is fair game IMO to be lynched Day 1, new or not.

It's not cheating unless it breaks the ACTUAL rules....it might be seen as exploitative/d*ckish play by others, but it's not cheating unless something someone does breaks a rule.

As said above, it'd have to break a rule put in place....so even if you yourself or anyone else feels such is it's cheating, it's not cheating unless it break a rule/the OP rules it as such.
==============================================================

Agreed 100%

There are a couple things to it. You have fooled me before and it begs of trying to set up Town points as scum knowing a lynch is bad and capitalizing on it.

I ISO'd Caesar. He clearly has expressed Mafia experience and I really don't like his 1-issue Day 1 (Lift v Agent). I'm not convinced he is scum but I will drop my Day 1 free pass based on his past experience plus what I consider a subpar Day 1.

Fair enough, and I do hope when I really am scum that my play is not any different than when I'm Town as to me that is what playing a good scum game entails.

Again, this is in answer to posts as I read them.

@yogs:
Why do you think this is so? as it so happens, i was mostly afk from then until now. I didn't want to leave my vote where scum could hammer when I went to bed.
I'm curious as to why you think I'm scum. The only obvious thing I can see is my miswording my one question to not clearly enough state that I didn't want written answers, just thinking.

See https://www.gog.com/forum/general/looking_for_players_for_a_forum_deduction_game/post3

I'm many hours behind.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Caesar's comment in the signup thread said, I don't think this means that he
a) has lost his touch or
b) hasn't lost his touch.
Similarly I don't think this shows any strong evidence that he
c) couldn't be scum or
d) could be scum.

Also,
I was continuing the food joke from last game, where GR never got anything to eat except condiments and a Popsicle.

I like the statement here, The first game i played HSL (HypersomniacLive) talked an awful ton, and had me thoroughly pocketed until the end. He was scum and one of the most vocal players, but his arguments makes sense. Why am I bringing this up?

ATM (post 403) I think Caesar might be 3rd party, but he is right that the 2nd guessing of everything is true not only of suspect players, like himself and Agent, but includes those who are the most talkative or who are the best analyzers.
Good Analysis =/= Auto town.

Agent's reaction post is quite nice. I appreciate it. I feel better about him now, and as of post 420 do not overly wish to vote Agent or Lift. Again, I think Agentcarr is 3rd party, maybe scum, maybe not, and I put Caesar in the same boat.

I read lift as leaning town.
Joppo? meh...everything before post 151 is total fluff, as is his 168. 240 has meat, and points out one reason i supect Caesar. I want to see more of him before voting. Neutral.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Everyone I haven't mentioned yet. Thank you for the responses to my questions. Caught up now.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I would vote for agent to avoid a NL, as even 3rd party (hostile or not) does not harm the town's WC. (yes, I am not talking about the lav.)
I would vote for Caesar, as he looks 3rd-party or scummy to me. I'd rather not, as this is his first time playing with us and a D1 lunch might turn him against the game, but he does have prior experience.

I'll go along with trent in that any lunch is better than none--but nearly only if it isn't town.

I did suggest agent to be investigated/roleblocked... Not exactly helping him.

My reason to vote Lift is his overreaction at something that at the time seemed meaningless.

As for me being third party... why would I insist on the "three Houses vs Slytherine" if I was one?

Why so much talk about my previous experience? If I'm a veteran I'm a veteran. If I'm a noob I'm a noob. If I play a suicide style... you get. But it's something that nobody can corroborate. Like I can't make anything of how you guys played in the previous threads that I haven't read.

vote agentcarr
For the reasons mentioned above. he might be town, but his play isn't pro-town, and thus he should be highly suspect.

Caesar's points seem good unrefuted, and we ought to get someone.

idk, i'm awfully indecisive at this point. "who to believe?" is the question of the day. now if only the scum would shout out their names, ranks, serial numbers, favorite cereals, and partners in this game, I'd be a whole lot happier.

What bothers me is that I got a response, but I don't see one here. Maybe the new page bug is ruining things again :O

Because it gives context. There are some things that are excusable or expected coming from noobs, but look strange on an experienced player. Also, some of us hesitate to lynch a noob D1. We don't want to scare them off, after all. Of course, you are right and you could lie about your previous experience or absence thereof. So let's not take it into account and just treat you like an experienced player.


@GR: thank you for your advice. Yes, if someone annoys you the best thing is to keep playing through. Which I am doing. Maybe I am wrong about agent, but I still think he would have more reason to act in the anti-town way he did, if he actually is anti-town. It's possible that he just didn't give a pair of dingo's kidneys about what the effect of his jokes would be. Especially at the third 'joke', that actually is a full blown false-claim at that point. But I prefer to judge him on his actions, not on his apology. While the apology was nice, it doesn't change the fact that he false-claimed. Claiming and then saying 'oh, hey, it was all a joke' is a no-go. And for the record, there is a difference between claiming something completely ludicrous which is apparent as a joke by not fitting the game and claiming an actual role that fits the setting.
So, as far as I am concerned, the Viktor Krum claim was a claim and should be treated as such. Not as joke. Maybe it was a test, whether he'd be left alone as neutral. Maybe just an effort to further disrupt or test how far he could go with his 'joking'. In any case not something I see Town!agent doing.


About other players:
yogsloth started out feeling more aggressive than usual. Until he was called out on that. But still, he is quite easy with throwing accusations/shade. His LAMIST accusation, while technically possible, felt just too convenient. I don't think that that is what Carradice was doing. Maybe I'm biased because I read Carradice as leaning town and therefore think that it was a genuine noob question. But all over I get a scummy vibe from yogs. Would vote.

Consul: feels off too. What is very strange is, how he worried about putting agent at L-1 without everyone consenting first not to quickhammer him. (posts 337 and 371) In other words, he would only put his vote on agent, if he can be confident that agent won't be lynched before he has time to withdraw his vote. He does not have any such worries concerning his vote on me. ... I read that as follows: he would like to put a vote on agent for a bit for distancing reasons. He also pretends that he sees agent as slightly off. But he doesn't actually want agent lynched, because agent is his scumbuddy.
Additionally, he was happy tagging along with yog's observation of Carradice. But apart from that, there is nothing from Consul beyond agent and me. No reads or thoughts on anyone else. ... Oh, upon re-reading I found something relating to someone else: he reads yogs as Town.

In conclusion: I think Consul is a scumbuddy of agent. Maybe yogs is part of that coterie as well, but maybe Consul just tags onto Town!yogs, if yogs is Town in spite of feeling off.
I would prefer lynching agent first and when agent flips scum taking an intense look at Consul tomorrow. But if lynching agent doesn't get a majority, I would also be happy to switch to Consul.


Town reads: still Carradice and GR and, with lesser conviction but still townier than neutral: RW. Wouldn't vote these three.

trent/SPF: hard to read. I still feel that these two aren't knowingly on one team.

Flocke: mostly absent. 2 days ago he proposed a theory that trent and yogs and maybe SPF are communicating by yog's word-triplets. Then he disappeared. I really don't think that his theory is correct and that yogs would feel the need to coach his equally experienced buddies trent and SPF with such a code. What's also interesting is, that in spite of an expressed strong conviction on Flocke's part, that yogs and trent are non-town, he doesn't vote either.

Joe: totally town, as always. And totally right about everything. As always. Wouldn't want to vote him today. There's not enough to actually get a read on him.