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vsr: I noticed that Europeans know exactly what kind of leaders other countries need and what they should do, but can't do anything in theirs own country, dreaming to migrate to Canada or, if lucky, to USA. :)
Very few countries have everything right.

Russians haven't always been lucky in choosing the "right" candidates themselves either. Here in Norway we have too many politicians walking over each other with contradicting agendas. Lately, it's been a sport on how much shit they can throw at old colleges, served in a hot book :-D

No matter the type of ruling a country have - there's always too much power or too much rules and clutter that hinders progress. In any case, direct democratic system hasn't been seen in a long time.
Post edited November 09, 2016 by sanscript
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vsr: I noticed that Europeans know exactly what kind of leaders other countries need and what they should do, but can't do anything in theirs own country
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Vainamoinen: Yeah, that's actually an elementary problem in democracy. You wouldn't understand.
If there is Democracy in Europe, why would people want to go away? Sounds more like dictatorship masqueraded as democracy.
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sanscript: Russians haven't always been lucky in choosing the "right" candidates themselves either.
But Russians have no problem with Merkel being elected in Germany, or Hollande in France, while Europeans clearly have a problem with Putin in Russia.
Post edited November 09, 2016 by vsr
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Vainamoinen: That is correct. You have to leave a lot of room for the people to eventually say "We didn't believe he'd actually do all the racist crap that he explicitly promised again and again and again". We had a lot of those folks post 1945.
I don't believe the Nazi analogy holds up, the US is a 200-year old republic with a long history of robust constitutional politics, Trump will be bound by this. Germany in the Interwar Period had only just got rid of an absolute monarchy and had no history of democratic politics, so it was easily subverted back into a dictatorship.

Also, I honestly don't see the issue with deporting illegal immigrants, they are breaking the law and are thus criminals, what exactly is the problem? If a country cannot control it's own territory (and thus it's borders) it's doesn't deserve to even be called a country.
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Pheace: Except his taxes you mean? Which is probably the biggest thing a business man could've kept hidden.
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sanscript: He didn't when he was confronted, besides there are different kinds of taxes.
Yes, I meant the tax returns that every single major party presidential candidate had released since 1976, those.
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Vainamoinen: That is correct. You have to leave a lot of room for the people to eventually say "We didn't believe he'd actually do all the racist crap that he explicitly promised again and again and again". We had a lot of those folks post 1945.
Worse still, a lot of the people born and raised during the NS dictatorship remained adherents to the ideology in the post-war period even until this day. It's difficult to be too hard on them, as a lot of them were indoctrinated and brainwashed in their most susceptible years (i.e. youth), but still, it's hard to mourn the fact that a lot of them are passing on to the great beyond now.

That being said, I'm pleased that at least no-one in my family was stricken by this curse. And the passing of the NS generation is a double-edged sword in that the voices of the past warning us against repeating history are also fading away.

I've grown up hearing some truly horrific stories from people who lived through WW2 and the Third Reich on both sides of the conflict, including the frightening effect that propaganda can have on radicalising otherwise decent people. We're basically seeing a repeat of history right now, specifically the pre-war period.
Post edited November 09, 2016 by jamyskis
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vsr: I noticed that Europeans know exactly what kind of leaders other countries need and what they should do, but can't do anything in theirs own country, dreaming to migrate to Canada or, if lucky, to USA. :)
Where are you seeing Europeans dreaming of this?
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Vainamoinen: Yeah, that's actually an elementary problem in democracy. You wouldn't understand.
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vsr: If there is Democracy in Europe, why would people want to go away? Sounds more like dictatorship masqueraded as democracy.
Well, according to what I have learned and understood so far, the more fitting term would be Oligarchy with democratic elements.

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sanscript: Russians haven't always been lucky in choosing the "right" candidates themselves either.
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vsr: But Russians have no problem with Merkel being elected in Germany, or Hollande in France, while Europeans clearly have a problem with Putin in Russia.
Touché...
^^
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vsr: But Russians have no problem with Merkel being elected in Germany, or Hollande in France, while Europeans clearly have a problem with Putin in Russia.
We have exactly the same problem with Putin in Russia as we did with Berlusconi in Italy. Italians will recall how difficult it was to get rid of him and his corruption because he basically had control over all of the media. Thankfully, he was more selfish and materialistic than ideological, so the damage was limited, but if he was someone who had a grudge against certain races or religions, he could have easily wreaked havoc.

Similarly, Putin and United Russia (and PiS in Poland, and Fidesz in Hungary) have an unprecedented and unhealthy level of control over the media in their respective countries).
Post edited November 09, 2016 by jamyskis
I just wanted to offer my condolences.
Can't say I saw this result coming - certainly not the wide spread between the two. While I can't stand Slick Hilly, I figured people would see her as more effective (whether or not they support her positions) at the job, and that this would put her over the top.

I ended up splitting my ticket down-ballot, and voted for neither T nor C at the top of the ticket.

If there's an upside, I've been waiting for these results before putting money into my retirement account for the year. The market always moves a fair bit right after the election, and this time it's moving in a direction that will make it favorable to those wanting to buy in for their retirement. The market here was due for a correction, anyway...

Other than that, could be an 'interesting' four years. It will much depend on how Congress goes along with him, and they weren't overly enthusiastic about him pre-election. Remains to be seen if any of them have a backbone, or if both sides go back to party-line thinking. Also remains to be seen how he'll comport himself starting January 20th. I suspect there will be a bit of a change in his demeanor, but that's just a guess.

I don't think it's going to be the doom and gloom that many are predicting; I also don't believe we'll see the great change for the better that others were voting for. Anyway, I guess we'll see what we get.

/waffling
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Crosmando: If a country cannot control it's [sic] own territory (and thus it's [sic] borders) it's [sic] doesn't deserve to even be called a country.
That's a bit of a difficult advice to give from a 97% immigrant country to a 98% immigrant country.
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SirPrimalform: I just wanted to offer my condolences.
Why, there's not much difference between these two right wingers. But Trump will be way more amusing, so I think they made the right choice! Just like the Bushman was way funnier than Oh bummer. (except for the punability of the name)
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HereForTheBeer: <snip>
Superb post from you as always Beery. Have a +1.

It's certainly an interesting question how party lines and internal party divisions will play a role in Congress. As you say, it's no secret that Trump is not particularly popular in GOP ranks, and it's a fair bet that the Democrats will almost certainly hold to party lines (which probably won't be difficult).
Post edited November 09, 2016 by jamyskis
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vsr: But Russians have no problem with Merkel being elected in Germany, or Hollande in France, while Europeans clearly have a problem with Putin in Russia.
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jamyskis: We have exactly the same problem with Putin in Russia as we did with Berlusconi in Italy. Italians will recall how difficult it was to get rid of him and his corruption because he basically had control over all of the media. Thankfully, he was more selfish and materialistic than ideological, so the damage was limited, but if he was someone who had a grudge against certain races or religions, he could have easily wreaked havoc.

Similarly, Putin and United Russia (and PiS in Poland, and Fidesz in Hungary) have an unprecedented and unhealthy level of control over the media in their respective countries).
Italy is part of European Union. Russia - is not.
So it's ok if you mind your business in EU. Russia will mind it's own business. Same with Syria and other sovereign countries.
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vulchor: Exactly. I am physically ill because of this. I never expected the results to go this way. Clinton fought hard when she was First Lady to give health care to the tens of millions of Americans without it (Bill put her in charge of that) and she originally proposed a single payer solution, but of course congress shot her down. I believe that if Hilary had gotten 8 years in office (two terms) the US would finally get that single payer solution we so desperately need, and we'd probably get public college education as well, that would solve the learning divide in the US as well. Hilary isn't the progressive that my heart 'Berns" for, but least of all she'd put a left-leaning Supreme Court justice in.
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catpower1980: Well, you two still have the option of moving to Wallonia as it has been under the left-wing for decades (and it's not gonna change soon). Although I'm not sure you could handle what real socialism (not the US one) is :o)
Wallonia is a part of the Netherlands, currect? My European ancestors emmigrated from the Netherlands, although I'm not sure if they were Walloons. Unfortunately unless you are rich it seems next to impossible for a US citizen to move to a European nation. Otherwise I'd do it immediately.

I'm curious as to why you said I couldn't handle that type of socialism? Is it like the democratic-socialism of Sweden and Norway? Those are the political attiutudes that I believe I share most, and I love what the Dutch do as well, especially their environmental reforms.