Well I feel ZFR wouldn't push for a NL as he's doing(a NL in general, I mean) so I lean them more town than scum atm.

Korotan I don't feel would be likely to jump on the NL wagon so quickly if they're scum, so I currently lean them a bit more town than scum.

Most of the other players(excluding me of course) I don't know how to lean....with more suspicion on(for one thing) the lurkers (minus maybe Micro for the time being, who is having IRL issues to deal with).

So you think it's possibly a derp clear sorta thing?

Again: depends on the situation. The advantage of keeping the option until late game is, that we'll have some interconnections between players, so that also the NK flip will give us info. 'If X is scum, then Y looks bad too, but Z can't be scum with Y together'. Or some such. So, when a NL will be a good idea will depend on the situation until then. It is quite moot to discuss this now, when we don't know yet how the game will develop.


Then you'll have to include Joe in your suspicion list too. But if you weren't trying to play by the numbers, then what was the point of promoting a Nolynch on D1? The only motivation for that, which you communicated, is that the numbers tell you that it is very slightly advantageous for Town. Everything else about NL on D1 is bad. So the only remaining reason to propose it is a play by numbers.

And if you see me as scummy for calling you out on that and for strongly disliking your approach, then so be it. But I would have expected that you, as an experienced player, would be able to distinguish between personal dislike and faction alignment. Or not? You seem quite miffed that your idea was shot down.

See the attached--it has some vivre.

i want to wait on NL until D2; that gives us the best odds coupled with at least one train to digest.

:O
*popcorn time*

I really like Dedo's 158, and am leaning him town as a result.

Should we perhaps dictate the game by pretzels? This seems tasty, though counter-productive as I would be eating all of them.


TY, I appreciate it.

Lift's comment about Pooka and PMs struck me as a bold statement, until i recalled the sample PM. Less sure now.

Not willing to lunch:
Dedo
Not gonna lunch unless it is to avoid NL
Lift
ZFR
Willing to lunch everyone else

OK, then I never really understood how that actually worked. I always thought it's a generalized guess rather than the actual team but I never did myself so no wonder I'm mistaken. But now I see what you mean - he's apparently assuming the "normal" ratio of scum in a 12 player game which may indeed be a Town ignorance. Technically it also be a subtle but clever scum play to emulate exactly that but I kind of don't see Pooka do that.

That sounded different in my head and I realized it might have come out wrong the moment I read it after I posted it. I didn't mean to imply that Pooka isn't clever enough to make such a play but that it doesn't feel like him doing some preemptive plant like that as I've never seen him do it. From what I know he dislikes D1 even more than others and normally he seems to not be making great effort initially.

No it isn't. I asked for singular NL, after which the game would continue as normal. D2 onwards the game would continue as normal, social interactions and all. I've specifically said that many times.

To use the car analogy:

_Maybe we should spend the first 15 minutes improving the car slightly. After that we'll have the same 1 hour of driving fun.
_Why are you suggesting that we replace the driving with an AI simulation??? The only reason to propose the 15 car improvement is to replace the driving with AI simulation.

Yes, that's what I meant too. There is always the WIFOM potential, and Pooka is clever enough to do it, I just don't see him putting it there preemptively.


Well, here is the best part. We don't need to avoid NL this time, so if it comes about naturally...

Yes, but the REASON you asked for a week more of boredom and frustration was purely motivated by numbers! So don't tell me that you weren't playing by numbers when making that suggestion.

The AI comment was hyperbole to illustrate, why I am so opposed to making the game boring for efficiency reasons. I was just taking your 'let's extend the D1 misery' idea to an extreme. You suggested to make the first two Days boring for efficiency reasons. So I asked you, 'why not go all the way and make the entire game boring? It would be oh so much more efficient!'. I took your mode of thinking, your reason to take the fun out of D2, to it's logical extreme. I didn't insinuate that you wanted to do that. On the contrary, I was illustrating, why it is a bad idea to value efficiency higher than actual playing, by picking an extreme example that even you couldn't want.

Some thoughts so far.

I don't think scum ZFR would go the way he did and keep standing his ground in the way he is as scum. Although I'm not 100% on board with him regarding NL as something that we definitely should do (we should do it only if and when the situation presses for it, in my opinion) I hear where he is coming from and feels like very natural for ZFR. Scum ZFR may also bring it up but I believe he'd let go of it a lot easier once he starts to pick up flak for it and that hasn't really happened.

So far Trent's and Lift's reactions towards ZFR's claims have been the strongest and it's possible at least one of them is scum leaning on the fact that discussing NL so early is normally frowned upon and can be a good enough excuse to push against a good player. I don't think it's very likely for both of them to be scum together though as that seems very risky. Out of the two Trent's reaction is the stronger one even though he wrote less. He came with a vote right out the door which is supposed to be consistent with his perceived MO but also feels rushed and opportunistic.

Scum!Lift would make use of any possibility to latch on but Town!Lift wouldn't be terribly far in the same situation so even though I find it a bit suspicious it's to a lesser extent than Trent so neutral at best with a spec of sus in that regard. I frown upon the forced bringing up of my interactions with Joe.

ZFR's observation about Pooka's bragging rights may have some merit. Other than that he's meh.

Most of the others are pretty much meh with bucktooth and korotan being slightly closer the Town-ish side of things because of the general feel their inital posts gave me but I still would like the to be a lot more present and active.

And there are the less active people who I'd like to be more active (@Micro, I hope things with your dad turn out in the best possible way, I really do).

But trent (and I thought you too, sorry if I misunderstood you) implied that I want to turn this into a game based *only* on numbers:

This post does imply that I'm turning this into a game of statistics *only*. "What happened to playing mafia?" seems to imply that playing mafia by "social interactions and so on" will not be there.


PS (as an aside, we don't need to make it another week of boredom if we NL immediately or agree on N0 NL. Not that I'm proposing we do it)

Yes, that is true. This seems to imply that you want to turn the entire game into a number game. But I read that as hyperbole too - maybe coming from my own mindset and from knowing that trent often reacts negatively to meta-playing. (abusing PM comparisions, too much statistics). You know trent, so it shouldn't be a surprise that he reacts strongly, maybe even over-reacts, to the suggestion to make the game less fun for efficiency reasons.

And yes, your suggestion to shorten D1 and turn D2 into D1 would reduce the amount of additional boredom. But, as you realize yourself, it would be equivalent to a N0 kill, which is mean towards the player killed. 'Oh, we have an even number of players, let's kill off one of us before actually playing.' That would be callous.

And if you re-read what I wrote about ZFR, you'll realize that I'm not pushing against him. Only against his idea. I'm rating him as neutral, since his ZFR-typical mindset is independent of alignment.

Really? You found that strange about me? I thought it whas already clear from the games before, that I am one of those, that like to go the NL option especially if we have not enough informations. I am just onto it, because I am happy that finally is the time about it makes sense.
And yes it may sound tragic but in a situation where we have to lynch I would rather go for the slight higher mathematical chance that we choose the right person if we just wait and let scum doing the first choice it would not harm my consciouness.

And if you were the one who gets removed this way? Who doesn't get to play at all because we shorten Day 1, giving scum a free first kill? Would you like that?

Or are you sure that you're not going to be that fist kill because you are scum yourself?