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General discussionGOG curation rejects another old-school RPG(112 posts)(112 posts)
(112 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 22, 2019
high rated
I have no problem in playing old-school RPGs. But I would never pay more than a 1$ for "Legends of Amberland".
I'm having a blast playing M&M3. And Amberland looks like trash compared to that 1991 game.

As for the fanatics in "RPG Codex" and other places: some years ago I tried to get back to pen&paper roleplaying. I had a blast playing RPGs when I was a kid and wanted to see how the new "P&P RPG renaissance" looked like...
I had to flee in terror. What I found was a universe crowded with a huge ammount of autistic fanboys and old grognards who seemed to be stuck in a time loop and thought that spending several hours in a dungeon fighting monsters and evading traps like in the old 80s scenarios was "The Real Deal". Not that I have anything against it specially. But it's almost like 30 years of game theory and concepts had never existed. Whenever I browse the "Drivethru" website 90% of the stuff I see is generic Heroic Fantasy and Space Opera trash :(


In the same way, it seems that many folk still seem to think that spending hours in a game with ugly graphics, grinding and grinding combat to earn XP and raise stats in order to fight tougher monsters also is "The Real Deal".

After all these years I'm still waiting for an open-world RPG with Ultima7-like graphics and mechanics, where you can raise from a peasant into a king, conquer foreign nations, manage your realm and dinasty, grow old and even continue the game through your children and heirs. A mix between Ultima and Mount&Blade games, so to speak.
Back in the late 80s/early 90s the devs would say that hardware limitations wouldn't allow them to create huge games like this (who would play an Ultima game on 100 floppy disks?). Well... what's the excuse now?

Just my ranting 2 cents here.
Posted July 22, 2019
On a related topic Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls, which GOG also rejected for undisclosed reasons, and many people complained about is STILL in release limbo on the Steam storefront. Last official post by the developers was May 29th 2019 (almost 2 months ago now).
Posted July 23, 2019
low rated
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GameRager: 2. The ending was a bit of a letdown(the 2 boss fights and the twist betrayal) though.

I also somewhat liked the dystopian setting of the first episode a bit as well.
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GreasyDogMeat: He totally 'borrowed' that twist from Time Cop! Not that I'm complaining... I love time travel stories and the idea of changing a person/timeline so they don't become a bastard.

The year... 2004! TIME TRAVEL IS A REALITY!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OPLHgw54h4

lol!
Lol yeah....time travel chairs.........imo Journeyman's suits did it a bit better in that regard.

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GameRager: Then GOG should wait to test the finished build BEFORE choosing whether to reject it or not.
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tomimt: If the development build is the one the devs are using to get in, that is the only thing GOG staff can review. They could have tried getting in the GOG's early access system instead.
If a dev states it is a beta/test build then GOG should at least allow them to submit a finished build later on to allow them to re-evaluate it and not just auto-reject a game based on an unfinished/buggy build....just my two cents.

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LordEbu: While I like the visuals of the game, the fact it is an early access game with a hefty 20 euro tag is not very promising in terms of potential sales for such a niche game. Either way, gave +1 to the wishlist and I wish the dev good luck!
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Crosmando: Someone on Steam asked the dev why it's so expensive, and he replied that it needs to be that expensive to make money. Someone should tell him that Spiderweb Software tried this approach for years and it doesn't work, you make more money by selling to a larger audience with a lower pricepoint, not by gauging a small audience repeatedly.
Didn't that guy have his games pirated so much because of the high pricepoint/gounging for hint books and other extras, and he even went so far as to make it so that one of his games(Nethergate Classic iirc) needed to be sent VIA CD to try and prevent piracy?
Post edited July 23, 2019 by GameRager
Posted July 23, 2019
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rjbuffchix: We also see how developers are with the singleminded obsession with Steam. In the RPGCodex thread, it was unclear if the developer would put the game on his own site despite people clearly asking for that/to put it on itch.io. My worry is that, like so many other games we have glimpsed over the years, it will just stay Steam-only. While it is DRM-free there, there are many of us who don't wish to purchase ANYTHING there. But even those who are DRM-free gamers would have to hold their nose and purchase there to get the only DRM-free version available anywhere.
Stuff like that is why I am glad I am more flexible and can/do buy stuff from steam that is DRM free......imo if one's ideals keep them back from too much culture/experience in life just to stick to one's guns those beliefs need re-evaluating/restructuring...if just a tad.
Posted July 23, 2019
low rated
Honestly , i'm glad GoG make the effort to cull the overabundance of games similar to the classics i once played, Steam is full of them, non compare to the likes of Zelda: ALTTP or Alundra, they end up taking certain aspects too far which just put me off, either going for the JRPG combat style (Final Fantasy), full of half naked anime chicks, or some other weird shit.

I got sick of being bombarded with the anime porn on the Steam Store, i blocked it out and still get that shite in my listings. To prevent it i'd have to limit my games to the basics, cutting off "nudity" which would also remove games like Witcher.

Atleast i don't have to do that here, atleast not yet...



I was never one to be interested in anime, it's whatever floats your boat, but when i'm searching for actual games to find upto 5/10 games in top sellers being some anime love crap, you can bet it will start pissing me off, the sex games are enough to skip past.
Post edited July 23, 2019 by DetouR6734
Posted July 23, 2019
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Crosmando: Someone on Steam asked the dev why it's so expensive, and he replied that it needs to be that expensive to make money. Someone should tell him that Spiderweb Software tried this approach for years and it doesn't work, you make more money by selling to a larger audience with a lower pricepoint, not by gauging a small audience repeatedly.
Spiderweb used that approach for years because it worked quite well, and Jeff Vogel specifically recommended that other developers do the same. However the market changed some time ago and he was forced to adapt. Even so, I kinda get the impression that he doesn't earn as much these days.
Posted July 23, 2019
low rated
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BeatriceElysia: GOG obviously think it won't sell enough. Either they are right or they may change their mind. Would you buy the game if it comes to GOG?
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rjbuffchix: I would buy it if it comes to GOG and I would also buy it if it came to itch.io or from the developer's own site I suppose. Apparently it is also DRM-free on Steam (for those who can hold their nose long enough to purchase). I do not plan to buy it on Steam.

I don't think that it's "obvious" GOG thinks the game won't sell enough. I'm more interested in observing patterns and behavior, so even if GOG came out and said "we think it won't sell enough, that's why we rejected it", I would still be a bit skeptical.

It is very weird to me how old-school dungeon crawler RPGs are consistently the games getting rejected. It leads me to believe GOG is not interested in satisfying the customer base with these RPGs even if they would sell ok. What some refer to as "hipster indies" appear to be a CLEAR priority over any old-school dungeon crawler, based on observing the patterns and behavior of GOG/curation.
too bad for you then


anyway enjoy the curation people keep clamoring as such a blessing over "eeeviiiil Steam"
Posted July 23, 2019
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GameRager: If a dev states it is a beta/test build then GOG should at least allow them to submit a finished build later on to allow them to re-evaluate it and not just auto-reject a game based on an unfinished/buggy build....just my two cents.
I don't think one rejection will prevent them to apply again at some point if they so want. They can always prove GOG wrong, but for that, they actually do need to want to do it and not abandon the idea after one rejection.
Posted July 23, 2019
The more threads like this I see, the more I'm happier I am that GOG uses curation. Over the years I've maybe disagreed with one of GOG's rejections. If this and Grimoire are the latest reasons of outrage over GOG's curation, then the trend continues.

Personally, I consider both games as horribly overpriced at launch. And while Grimoire(a game for which the developer adamantly claimed that there will never be a discount) recently saw a 50% discount on top of a huge price reduction, is also a poorly game designed game, for Legends of Amberland I'll just say that it's overpriced, and only time will tell on the quality of the story/gameplay elements.
Posted July 23, 2019
Sorry to add my opinion to the pile but this game art direction is seriously lacking for the asked price in early access... This is not "pixel art" but ugly SNES level 3D.
Posted July 23, 2019
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koima57: Sorry to add my opinion to the pile but this game art direction is seriously lacking for the asked price in early access... This is not "pixel art" but ugly SNES level 3D.
Oi now, that's an insult to both Mode 7 and the Super FX Chip.

There are several games on the SNES that had better looking 3D or pseudo 3D effects.
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morrowslant: On a related topic Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls, which GOG also rejected for undisclosed reasons, and many people complained about is STILL in release limbo on the Steam storefront. Last official post by the developers was May 29th 2019 (almost 2 months ago now).
The undisclosed reasons turned out to be a copyright/trademark dispute. The original creator finally got his hands back on the rights, and now he's trying to sort the fine mess Japan made of his IP. (Is what I understand, anyway.)
Post edited July 23, 2019 by Darvond
Posted July 23, 2019
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Crosmando: Someone on Steam asked the dev why it's so expensive, and he replied that it needs to be that expensive to make money. Someone should tell him that Spiderweb Software tried this approach for years and it doesn't work, you make more money by selling to a larger audience with a lower pricepoint, not by gauging a small audience repeatedly.
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eric5h5: Spiderweb used that approach for years because it worked quite well, and Jeff Vogel specifically recommended that other developers do the same. However the market changed some time ago and he was forced to adapt. Even so, I kinda get the impression that he doesn't earn as much these days.
Lol wut, Vogel himself admitted that as soon as he put his games on Steam with a much lower price, he sold heaps more copies than he ever did the old way. The old gauging approach only "worked" because it generated only enough money to employ one person - Vogel, and the graphics of the old titles were atrocious, it was only when he came to Steam at lower prices that the production values actually improved.
Post edited July 23, 2019 by Crosmando
Posted July 23, 2019
low rated
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rjbuffchix: My worry is that, like so many other games we have glimpsed over the years, it will just stay Steam-only. While it is DRM-free there, there are many of us who don't wish to purchase ANYTHING there. But even those who are DRM-free gamers would have to hold their nose and purchase there to get the only DRM-free version available anywhere.
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GameRager: Stuff like that is why I am glad I am more flexible and can/do buy stuff from steam that is DRM free......imo if one's ideals keep them back from too much culture/experience in life just to stick to one's guns those beliefs need re-evaluating/restructuring...if just a tad.
So...a middle ground fallacy? The fact of the matter is that anyone trying to be a principled person is unlikely to have a fun time in life. But in fact, some extreme principles that we all experience in every day life are good because they stand up for truth, some are bad because they violate consent of others. Some other extreme principles, like "really not even wanting to buy DRM-free on Steam", may seem rather insignificant in the scheme of things but are nonetheless important to those who feel that way.

Regardless, clearly you would concede there are people like this on this site, even if they are a small minority. One has to ask why the dev wouldn't be bothered to put the game DRM-free on itch, his own site, or Humble (and that's to say nothing of ADDITIONAL places like fireflower and z oom). Consider why it is viewed as valid to criticize the supposed "laziness" of the graphics and lack of value for price point, but not valid to criticize the laziness of not putting a DRM-free game on available DRM-free platforms that would take it.

The answer, to use your analogy of culture, is that pro-Steam bias has taken over the culture of PC gaming even on DRM-free sites, lol. Also, there is a saying "history is written by the victors". At one point, it would have been considered "extreme" and ridiculous to have to connect online to play most of PC games. Now it is considered weird and eccentric to not to do so, and even this very site adopted and continues to adopt Steam-like features (as long as they don't make the client mandatory or make DRM worse, I guess it's just the cost of doing business anymore).

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MadalinStroe: The more threads like this I see, the more I'm happier I am that GOG uses curation. Over the years I've maybe disagreed with one of GOG's rejections. If this and Grimoire are the latest reasons of outrage over GOG's curation, then the trend continues.

Personally, I consider both games as horribly overpriced at launch. And while Grimoire(a game for which the developer adamantly claimed that there will never be a discount) recently saw a 50% discount on top of a huge price reduction, is also a poorly game designed game, for Legends of Amberland I'll just say that it's overpriced, and only time will tell on the quality of the story/gameplay elements.
Actually, it is honestly difficult to think of ANY small production indie that I would want to pay over $20. RPGs do get more benefit of the doubt with me though, not just because my love of the genre but because they generally come with a lot more content than, say, a platformer. On that note, if a consumer is choosing between Grimoire (not released here) or Gato Roboto (recently released here), both are currently the same price iirc yet one literally offers more than dozens and dozens more hours to the player. Do you criticize a game like Gato Roboto for being overpriced? Or numerous other releases over the last year or so.

When the new-and-improved Grimoire came to itch, it was $9.99. I know you are referring to the original price but do you believe even $9.99 is overpriced? If so, you are entitled to that belief...just like I am entitled to mine that many, MANY indie games (non-dungeon crawler RPGs) are accepted here but are priced higher than I would want to pay. And I am not trying to be a cheapskate either, in other threads I have advocated that DRM-free versions of big games like Fallouts, Bioshocks, Mafias, etc are imo UNDERpriced if anything considering you get to own them. I would have been willing to pay more than "full" price for those games I named.
Post edited July 23, 2019 by rjbuffchix
Posted July 23, 2019
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koima57: Sorry to add my opinion to the pile but this game art direction is seriously lacking for the asked price in early access... This is not "pixel art" but ugly SNES level 3D.
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Darvond: Oi now, that's an insult to both Mode 7 and the Super FX Chip.

There are several games on the SNES that had better looking 3D or pseudo 3D effects.
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morrowslant: On a related topic Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls, which GOG also rejected for undisclosed reasons, and many people complained about is STILL in release limbo on the Steam storefront. Last official post by the developers was May 29th 2019 (almost 2 months ago now).
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Darvond: The undisclosed reasons turned out to be a copyright/trademark dispute. The original creator finally got his hands back on the rights, and now he's trying to sort the fine mess Japan made of his IP. (Is what I understand, anyway.)
Haha yes some were good to great (Starfox, Mario kart), some were really meh (street racer) and some were ugly like this new game... (wolfenstein 3D, that part of Jurrassic park)
Posted July 23, 2019
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Crosmando: Lol wut, Vogel himself admitted that as soon as he put his games on Steam with a much lower price, he sold heaps more copies than he ever did the old way. The old gauging approach only "worked" because it generated only enough money to employ one person - Vogel, and the graphics of the old titles were atrocious, it was only when he came to Steam at lower prices that the production values actually improved.
Are you trying to say "gouging"? Anyway, that doesn't match with what he's actually written:

"Our newest game, Avadon 3, didn't do that well. I think it's a really good game, and the people who bought it seem to like it. But there are new RPGs coming out on Steam every single workday, some of them are good, and you can only hold off so much competition before being overwhelmed.

Any way I can cut costs and still maintain a constant art style and game quality, I will take it, and I won't apologize. This market doesn't allow for blowing money unnecessarily anymore, at least not for me."

Also his newer games are $20, which is not much less than the $25 he used to advocate for.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionGOG curation rejects another old-school RPG(112 posts)(112 posts)
(112 posts)