Matewis: Oh it's been a while, but I only finished* it. That is, I beat all the wings of the castle and the associated bosses, as well as the final boss. But after that the game starts over and you have to do it all over again, except it's far more difficult. I think I got as far as that big eye boss again, but just gave up because it became way tougher with extra attacks etc. :P

MadalinStroe: I see. If I remember correctly, after you finish the game the first time, the game starts again as "new game+", only this time once you kill a boss it unlocks a "boss challenge". And if you kill all four "boss challenges"(or were there five challenges?) you finally unlock the last class of the game: the traitor.

I played the game for about 20 hours before I tried the challenges, with the intent of 100% completing the game. After wasting 8 hours, over the next two weeks trying to win the first boss challenge, I quit the game and never looked back.

That's just bad game design. They built the entire game by allowing you to adapt your playing experience, only to then take away all that progression, and forcing you to play a very limited build against a completely new enemy, which also happens to be the most difficult enemy in the game.

There is a reason good metroidvanias are rare. Slowly introducing enemies, that allow you to learn how to deal with different patterns and compositions, thus training you to face a boss.

Ghorpm: But... but... but... but unlocking a traitor class is totally optional! It doesn't even change anything to the story. It's just that after beating the game you may want to try something fresh: face a challenging boss with a very unconventional character. I actually love this part. I do understand, however, that for a completionist it must be a nightmare so I feel your pain.

MadalinStroe: I'm all for a challenge but not the way they did it. Why have a progression system which you get to use all throughout your campaign, only to have the hardest challenges not use it. It's like learning to play chess, only to then have to play with only pawns, while your opponent plays only with queens, and claim it's a challenge.

I played my game with triple jump runes, and no dash. Needless to say one of the bosses forced me into a dash exclusive build. They had a 75 level ups for your health, but none of the challenges used 0 level ups. 1/2 hits and you're dead.

Ghorpm: I like your chess simile but I prefer to see it a bit differently: learn to play chess and then try to use your newly gained knowledge and solve some chess puzzles (like checkmate in two turns no matter what your opponent do etc.) Only that in this particular case the puzzles are super hard.

To be honest I would be quite angry if these bosses were a part of the story, ie. you have to beat them to learn everything. I'm pretty mad at Crypt of Necrodancer for that: you have to beat the game with three different characters to learn the whole story and the last one is insanely difficult.

I completely agree that theses bosses in Rogue Legacy are much much harder than the rest of the game and it takes away all of your progression when you try to beat them which may seem very unfair but this is optional so is still ok in my book.

Anyway, we apparently have completely different opinion on this subject. It was nice to learn your point of view, thanks :)

Leroux: I think I might give up on Jedi Outcast. It was fun in the beginning, but became incredibly frustrating very soon. I constantly had to check a walkthrough because I didn't know what I was supposed to do or where I was supposed to be going, there's quite a bit of hazardous first person platforming, and everything's worsened by all the snipers shooting at me from far away places that are very tough to spot or target. So this lead to lots of savescumming, and even so, I often had to make concessions, meaning my health slowly decreased bit by bit, and while in the beginning I could find the occasional medkits or shield rechargers, they seem to be extremely rare or absent from the levels where I would have needed them the most. Barely made it through the previous one, but instead of giving me a break at the start of the following, it just continues with all that sniper and trap bullshit, which due to my low health translates to sudden death gameplay and that's no fun. I kind of feel reminded of Half-Life which I abandoned for the same reason. Yeah, yeah, git gud and all that, but no, I'm too old for that shit. I just don't enjoy such game design anymore, if I ever did.

(I actually began to wonder whether obscure and unfair game design like this is the reason why we have so much handholding and autohealing in modern titles now ... ;P)

Leroux: I think I might give up on Jedi Outcast. It was fun in the beginning, but became incredibly frustrating very soon. I constantly had to check a walkthrough because I didn't know what I was supposed to do or where I was supposed to be going, there's quite a bit of hazardous first person platforming, and everything's worsened by all the snipers shooting at me from far away places that are very tough to spot or target. So this lead to lots of savescumming, and even so, I often had to make concessions, meaning my health slowly decreased bit by bit, and while in the beginning I could find the occasional medkits or shield rechargers, they seem to be extremely rare or absent from the levels where I would have needed them the most. Barely made it through the previous one, but instead of giving me a break at the start of the following, it just continues with all that sniper and trap bullshit, which due to my low health translates to sudden death gameplay and that's no fun. I kind of feel reminded of Half-Life which I abandoned for the same reason. Yeah, yeah, git gud and all that, but no, I'm too old for that shit. I just don't enjoy such game design anymore, if I ever did.

(I actually began to wonder whether obscure and unfair game design like this is the reason why we have so much handholding and autohealing in modern titles now ... ;P)

Matewis: Did you at least get to the lightsaber part? I do remember the purely FPS portion of the game was pretty difficult, and that it started to feel like a different game as soon as you had your lightsaber and could use force powers. But yes, even still beyond that point every now and again I would have to use the sniper rifle to take care of some faraway sniper.

theslitherydeee: And to deal with the snipers run out of and immediately back into cover and watch for the direction the shot came from. There's a significant delay with the sniper gun so once you know where they are and have the timing down it's a cakewalk.

Leroux: I did retrieve the lightsaber, but the levels immediately after are the ones with the snipers, and since the lightsaber is useless across great distances, I didn't get a lot of opportunities to use it yet. I did experience how fun it is when you throw your lightsaber and it gets stuck somewhere on its way back to you, constantly rattling against the walls ... XD

What I haven't found so far though is a sniper rifle ...

Matewis: Oh yeah, I remember that level. Starts in a bar or something I think. Definitely one of the poorer levels in the game, especially with those annoying snipers :\

Leroux: What I haven't found so far though is a sniper rifle ...