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General discussionForum Mafia #68, Acme on the brink of collapse!(925 posts)(925 posts)
(925 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 08, 2020
I felt like I hadn't checked the game in ages and there'd be pages of stuff to catch up on, but it doesn't look like much has actually happened thankfully.

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Dreamia: Sorry but I think I'm gonna drop out of the game.

I don't really have as much time as I assumed and I've been unable to keep up with what's happening. I've also become quite unsure if games like mafia is really for me.

Regardless, thank you all for being so friendly to a complete newbie like me :)

I'll see you around!
Oh, that's a pity as the game hasn't really got going yet. I hope you give it another go if there comes a time when you feel like you'd be able to keep up better.
Posted August 08, 2020
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GymHenson: I saw I had a role and tried to crumb it.
Why?

Or to put it another way: what were you trying to achieve?
Posted August 09, 2020
Unfortunately I didn't have time to go online today and I don't have time to read. I'll participate more tomorrow. But for today I have to go to bed. My RL day started very early and was very exhausting.
Posted August 09, 2020
I should shower more often. All kinds of crazy ideas hit me then.

(Credit to Vitek and Joe, whose posts about which I was thinking in the shower made me see this)

I've been a thrice huge fool. The siMiLaritY in the breadcrumbing made me draw parallels between those two instances and assume that because he was Town then, he is Town now.

But if we disregard the method of breadcrumbing for a moment, we notice that those instances. Are. Completely. Different.

In the HP game, GR didn't breadcrumb on D1. He mentioned Cop, but that wasn't breadcrumbing then. Quite the opposite: he mentioned Cop and pretended not to know if one was in play because he wanted to draw the attention of players away from from him being Cop. He did it in a crude way that achieved the opposite result, but the intention was there. Once he got tangible results on D2 and D3, then only he breadcrumbed with the intention of people seeing those breadcrumbs and reading his results.
Again, let's not look at the methods and results, let's look at intentions:
D1: I want people NOT to know that I have a Cop PR.
D2 & D3: I want people to see the Investigation Results I got?

Is this what he's doing this game?
Not. At. All.
What we see this game is
D1: I want to breadcrumb that I have a PR this game.

This is, aside from the breadcrumbing method, actually nothing at all like HP game.

So why did he do it?
Because he saw how last few games people who breadcrumbed D1 were completely Town-read. The reason last game Micro's claim was completely accepted because of his excellent solid breadcrumb.
And this is what GR was trying to emulate.

If he really had a role, he would have breadcrumbed the role.
Why breadcrumb "PR"? It completely defeats the purpose of breadcrumbing. I think he was giving himself some leeway to make his fake-claim easier without committing to a particular PR.

Yeah...

Unvote dedo
vote Gym
Posted August 09, 2020
Damn, you've got a point there zfr. Really this does come across as some kind of gambit rather than a genuine Claim.


1. The vagueness of the claim suggests he doesn't want to lock himself down too early.
2. The lack of subtlety suggests that he wanted it to be seen. I think GH knows by know that breadloafing isn't all that helpful so I'd expect him to breadcrumb much more subtly if his intentions were genuine.

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ZFR: (Credit to Vitek and Joe, whose posts about which I was thinking in the shower made me see this)
Let's admit it, we all think about Vitek and Joe in the shower right?
Posted August 09, 2020
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Pookina: You see, I only figured out what it was after ZFR talked about it. To be honest, I always quickly skim through your posts so I don't spot them.
That's fair(the skimming and the pointing out after the fact). I'm just trying to figure if any who pointed such out might have had non-town(read scum) reasons for doing so).

+++++++++

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ZFR: Why?

Or to put it another way: what were you trying to achieve?
I was trying to keep a PR alive as best I could, while not knowing or thinking it was role madness(due to either forgetting or not knowing it was role madness, as I said earlier).

Now I know it is....had I known/remembered that then(at game start) I likely would've went at it differently.

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ZFR: This is, aside from the breadcrumbing method, actually nothing at all like HP game.

So why did he do it?
Because he saw how last few games people who breadcrumbed D1 were completely Town-read. The reason last game Micro's claim was completely accepted because of his excellent solid breadcrumb.
And this is what GR was trying to emulate.

If he really had a role, he would have breadcrumbed the role.
Why breadcrumb "PR"? It completely defeats the purpose of breadcrumbing. I think he was giving himself some leeway to make his fake-claim easier without committing to a particular PR.
OR maybe the PR I have is best kept vague(as recommended by mafia game literature) to give town a better edge, and I didn't want to crumb the specific PR unless I had to?

(also due to my terribad efforts at crumbing, it's likely scum would know my PR if I had crumbed it specifically...thus negating some of the role's benefit)

But seeing as it's now in the open and distracting from finding actual scum: I am willing to claim if enough people want me to.
(if I read the info on my role right, claiming would have some benefits for town but also some downsides)
Posted August 09, 2020
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my name is catte: 1. The vagueness of the claim suggests he doesn't want to lock himself down too early.
There was actually a reason and method to the vagueness.
(Read the reply above to ZFR for more info on that aspect)

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my name is catte: 2. The lack of subtlety suggests that he wanted it to be seen.
You're right...I did. As Pooka stated a few posts back, some skim my posts....I wanted to make sure such gets seen, and thus I overcompensated due(in large part) to worrying it would be missed otherwise.

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my name is catte: I think GH knows by know that breadloafing isn't all that helpful so I'd expect him to breadcrumb much more subtly if his intentions were genuine.
Had I known/remembered(could be either one with my memory being the way it is) it was role madness and the PR was one I was more familiar with I likely would've done such, or perhaps(more likely) not crumbed at all.

BTW: Some of my posts may or may not contain more subtle crumbs as well.

Bill muses: "I wonder if anyone found any of these possible crumbs?"

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my name is catte: Let's admit it, we all think about Vitek and Joe in the shower right?
"I only think of Girl Bunny in the shower" Bill says, before winking and heading off.
Posted August 09, 2020
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GymHenson: I was trying to keep a PR alive as best I could, while not knowing or thinking it was role madness(due to either forgetting or not knowing it was role madness, as I said earlier).

Now I know it is....had I known/remembered that then(at game start) I likely would've went at it differently.
That's not an answer to what I asked.

Forget role-madness. Let's assume this isn't role madness. Why did you breadcrumb that you have a PR?

Do you know why people breadcrumb what PR they have?
Posted August 09, 2020
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ZFR: That's not an answer to what I asked.
Sorry, sometimes I answer as best I can based on how I read and understand a reply/post.

(That said i'd also like your answer: Should I claim or not at some point...to clear up the distraction/etc? Also what about my question in Post 129?)

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ZFR: Forget role-madness. Let's assume this isn't role madness. Why did you breadcrumb that you have a PR?
Because I still(in general, and despite my saying I play to have fun) have a good sized desire to help my team win, and when I have a PR I want to be able to keep it in play to help to that end.

Also I worry a bit too much about not doing it good enough, so I(as said a few times prior) overcompensate with it.

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ZFR: Do you know why people breadcrumb what PR they have?
One reason is to be able to help clear themselves if town and they get voted on and get close to lynch. Another would be, if scum, to have an alibi to hide behind.

Are those the ones you meant?
Posted August 09, 2020
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GymHenson: Because I still(in general, and despite my saying I play to have fun) have a good sized desire to help my team win, and when I have a PR I want to be able to keep it in play to help to that end.
How does breadcrumbing PR help Town win? If you want to be able to keep it in play why claim you have it?


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GymHenson: One reason is to be able to help clear themselves if town and they get voted on and get close to lynch.

Are those the ones you meant?
Yes. I meant this for Town. I'll get back to this later.

First, could you answer the above question? How did you think breadcrumbing PR helps Town win?
Posted August 09, 2020
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ZFR: How does breadcrumbing PR help Town win? If you want to be able to keep it in play why claim you have it?
I crumb(as of late, in recent games, as part of a new tactic I have been trying) when I have town PRs to make sure other town players see it and know to not vote me.

Now this seems to have a tendency to not work out(only town seeing it, I mean) as well when I did it last(well despite it slightly helping us win, albeit combined with other factors), which is why I tried to make it more subtle this time.

Also a note: Had I realized it was role madness I likely would've kept my mouth shut for the most part....or maybe stuck to just the other subtle crumbs in my posts.

(Now that I answered your questions, if you'd be so kind as to reciprocate :))
Posted August 09, 2020
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GymHenson: I crumb(as of late, in recent games, as part of a new tactic I have been trying) when I have town PRs to make sure other town players see it and know to not vote me.
If that's your purpose why crumb, and not openly say you have a PR?

Going back to why people crumb. Crumbing a role by Town early on has the following:
Benefit: You get credibility when you have to claim
Risk: Scum might see it.

So you weigh benefit vs risk when you decide if and how to do it.

Crumbing "PR", without specifiying the role gives you the risk (scum can see it) without the benefit (the fact that you claim "PR" doesn't get you any credibility when you claim, for example Cop). So... why do it?


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GymHenson: Also a note: Had I realized it was role madness I likely would've kept my mouth shut for the most part
Yes, you've mentioned it 5 times in the last 2 days. I printed it and posted above my monitor so I don't forget it. I've informed all my neighbours and sent a note to the United Nations. Don't worry.
Posted August 09, 2020
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ZFR: If that's your purpose why crumb, and not openly say you have a PR?

Crumbing "PR", without specifiying the role gives you the risk (scum can see it) without the benefit (the fact that you claim "PR" doesn't get you any credibility when you claim, for example Cop). So... why do it?
The sources I looked up said one good strategy is to be vague and just hint at a PR.

Other sources said to do other things as good strategies, such as what you said: claiming outright. I just went with the strategy my gut told me to pick, though it seems I might've been better off choosing another strategy.

(That said I might go another route entirely as the game goes on, if need be and/or I feel it will help the team)

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ZFR: Yes, you've mentioned it 5 times in the last 2 days. I printed it and posted above my monitor so I don't forget it. I've informed all my neighbours and sent a note to the United Nations. Don't worry.
If you've noticed I tend to repeat a good amount in these games. Sorry for that.

(That said, I guess you're not intending on answering what I asked so not gonna bother pressing it again after this. I will be making a note of it in my game notes, however)
Posted August 09, 2020
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GymHenson: (Now that I answered your questions, if you'd be so kind as to reciprocate :))
Sorry, I didn't intend not to answer.
What question do you want me to answer? Should you claim? As a general rule one claims when he's at L-1, or close to lynch. Without knowing specifics, I really can't help you more than this.


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GymHenson: The sources I looked up said one good strategy is to be vague and just hint at a PR.
I... really can't think of any good strategy that suggest that, should you have a PR, you should make vague claims about having some PR. Are you sure your sources weren't saying what NOT to do?
Care to show that source?

The last two times I remember you having a Town PR (blocker in C9++, Cop in HP), you made the right play of trying to hide the fact that you have a PR.

Now this?

Sorry, I don't buy it. This looks more like a botched attempt by scum to try and fake-crumb.
Posted August 09, 2020
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ZFR: Sorry, I didn't intend not to answer.
That's fine...but wait, you honestly missed the 3-4 times I asked it? Which were in direct posts to you for the most part?

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ZFR: What question do you want me to answer? Should you claim? As a general rule one claims when he's at L-1, or close to lynch. Without knowing specifics, I really can't help you more than this.
That's not what I asked exactly.....should I claim to keep from being a distraction to town and to allow them to focus on other players to find actual scum?

To me that seems very clear and easy to understand.

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ZFR: I... really can't think of any good strategy that suggest that, should you have a PR, you should make vague claims about having some PR. Are you sure your sources weren't saying what NOT to do?
Care to show that source?
No, the PR has a slight benefit to keeping it vague when crumbing(although other strategies also provide other benefits).

Also wait, you want me to share the source...which would expose what PR I have in the process. Really?

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ZFR: Sorry, I don't buy it. This looks more like a botched attempt by scum to try and fake-crumb.
There are things about your posting as of late that I don't buy as well...so:

==========================

I just had a realization of my own...like dominoes falling into place:

First you(ZFR) post this post (Post 51) in which you say I am in your town reads pile

You then seem to 'muddle about' asking things until this post, Post 154, where you claim to have a realization and vote me

All the while asking more questions(perhaps trying to get more role information out of me?), and seemingly ignoring my own repeated questions about whether I should claim.

Then comes this post, after i'd only asked the question 3-4 TIMES....which also seems to be asking for the source of my PR info
(which would outright expose my PR if I dropped the link or full info)

To me, all this seems odd....like scum trying to pretend to scum hunt & get town to off me(so y'all don't have to NK me and waste a NK).....but would scum!ZFR be so bold as to start the wagon on me and stay in the spotlight for so long and to such a degree?

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Regardless, it seems suspect as heck so:

Anvil to the noggin ZFR

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(If I feel i'm wrong I will take my vote off later, but for now I feel like this is one of the best places for it)
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionForum Mafia #68, Acme on the brink of collapse!(925 posts)(925 posts)
(925 posts)