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Chaser98: ...
There's actually a misconception about Elder Scrolls games that not all that much effort goes towards making the gameplay more interesting. The issue with them is that there's just SO MUCH GAMEPLAY. When designing gameplay mechanics, Bethesda has to design, implement, test and balance a mad amount of stuff, so much that it'll never work together flawlessly.

Let's just take a quick look at the stuff they have to do all that for: Alchemy, crafting, various forms of combat including archery, stealth, various forms of magic including stuff like necromancy, enchanting etc., and they have to polish the subsets of all those things as well. They have to do all this because TES games are all about player choice and accomodating for as wide range of gameplay options as humanly possible - every player will play a TES game differently, using different sets of skills, of equipment, all of this even further strengthened by the perk system added in Skyrim. You don't get your usual archetypes - you build a character you want to play, from a combination of skills you want to use. But that also means that playing a sneaky archer should feel just as good as playing a dagger-weilding assassin, which should feel just as good as playing a hardened warrior, which should feel just as good as playing an alchemist - basically, all these mechanics have to at least as good as the next one.

Most players don't see that tho - most players will just play a character they want to play and don't notice how is it they're able to do so. Let's say somebody plays a sword+shield wielding character - they can immediately start drawing comparisons to Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, saying that the combat system was far superior there and that of TES is not deep enough. Of course it's not, combat is not the sole focus of TES (altho admittedly, Dark Messiah pulled stealth off rather well too. Mostly as a supplement to combat tho.) Every aspect you find in a TES game has been done better elsewhere - but I have not seen any other game which would combine all those aspects nearly as well as TES games.
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Chaser98: ...
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Fenixp: There's actually a misconception about Elder Scrolls games that not all that much effort goes towards making the gameplay more interesting. The issue with them is that there's just SO MUCH GAMEPLAY. When designing gameplay mechanics, Bethesda has to design, implement, test and balance a mad amount of stuff, so much that it'll never work together flawlessly.

Let's just take a quick look at the stuff they have to do all that for: Alchemy, crafting, various forms of combat including archery, stealth, various forms of magic including stuff like necromancy, enchanting etc., and they have to polish the subsets of all those things as well. They have to do all this because TES games are all about player choice and accomodating for as wide range of gameplay options as humanly possible - every player will play a TES game differently, using different sets of skills, of equipment, all of this even further strengthened by the perk system added in Skyrim. You don't get your usual archetypes - you build a character you want to play, from a combination of skills you want to use. But that also means that playing a sneaky archer should feel just as good as playing a dagger-weilding assassin, which should feel just as good as playing a hardened warrior, which should feel just as good as playing an alchemist - basically, all these mechanics have to at least as good as the next one.

Most players don't see that tho - most players will just play a character they want to play and don't notice how is it they're able to do so. Let's say somebody plays a sword+shield wielding character - they can immediately start drawing comparisons to Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, saying that the combat system was far superior there and that of TES is not deep enough. Of course it's not, combat is not the sole focus of TES (altho admittedly, Dark Messiah pulled stealth off rather well too. Mostly as a supplement to combat tho.) Every aspect you find in a TES game has been done better elsewhere - but I have not seen any other game which would combine all those aspects nearly as well as TES games.
I agree, the Elder Scrolls series IS more complex than it's given credit at times. I'll go ahead and make it clear that despite my previous post (which was mostly just bored complaining), I actually do like the Elder Scrolls series.

I played Gothic 3 before I played Oblivion (my first Elder Scrolls game) and to me, Gothic 3 feels jut as complex as Oblivion and Skyrim, despite being much older than Skyrim, and having been made by a much smaller (or so I would imagine) development team. It's very similar to the Elder Scrolls series, featuring a huge map (to me it feels bigger than Skyrim, but that could be just because of the mountains), a completely open world, includes alchemy/crafting/mining, and allows you to build your character as you see fit, from a brute warrior to a summoning type mage or a ranger/mage mix, etc etc.

I suppose it feels more complex due to it not being level scaled and instead of a magical point arrow, it has a map that is sort of useless, requiring you to occasionally just head off in the general direction of where you were told to go. Gothic 3's alchemy/mining system is more limited than what you would find in the Elder Scrolls games (for example: you can't craft armor), but it's overall pretty comparable in almost every way. to the Elder Scrolls series. Gothic 3 even has a few things that the Elder Scrolls doesn't, such as having entire herds of animals instead of just two wolves/two deer/etc/etc and having a wider variety of wildlife. It's a shame that Gothic 3 was/is so glitchy and buggy.

On another note: I own Dark Messiah Of Might and Magic, it's a great game, when it isn't crashing.
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Chaser98: I've still spent well over a hundred hours in Skyrim and enjoyed most of it, and if I can ever get Steam to stop resetting my keyboard setup in Morrowind every time I restart it, I could see myself putting in a LOT of time into Morrowind.
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keeveek: "I just played 100 hours in this game! It was terrible!"

Oh jesus.

I mean, I dislike Bethesda games very much. I couldn't last more than 10 hours in fucking any of them, so I really can say I don't like them. For me, Bethesda games are The Sims for boys, only more boring.

Playin 100 hours of something and complaining about it is hilarious to me. Did you invest 100+ hours in all other Bethesda games? That would be even funnier.
I was mostly bored and complaining (since this has become a complain about Bethesda thread), but for the most part I really enjoyed Skyrim, and I suppose I could honestly say I'm more bored with Skyrim than actually disliking it. Ya know, you play something for a while and have fun with it, while noticing the flaws but you ignore them because you're having fun, eventually you play the game so much that you get bored with it and afterwards you mostly remember the flaws? Sort of like listening to your favorite song too much.

As far as the other Bethesda games? Well I played Oblivion just long enough to finish the Mage's College questline and that was it. I barely play Morrowind because Steam keeps resetting my controls, but Morrowind seems to be the best Elder Scrolls game overall. I played Fallout 3 for less than five hours, and I've played Fallout: New Vegas for about an hour (but will give it some more time).

If you'll give me some time, I'll complain about my favorite band, book and food haha.
Post edited January 03, 2014 by Chaser98
low rated
to do not forget.
and thats the only reason you necro'd this fucking thread ?

gee thanks

where are the air freshners ?
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Chaser98: There's actually a misconception about Elder Scrolls games that not all that much effort goes towards making the gameplay more interesting. The issue with them is that there's just SO MUCH GAMEPLAY.
And let's not forget the exciting "watch your character chop wood" thing, or sitting! :-)
Or to remind us that Bethesda is teh devi1 and we need to boycott every game that they make?
Anyway,back to Arena and Daggerfall.
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snowkatt: and thats the only reason you necro'd this fucking thread ?

gee thanks

where are the air freshners ?
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l0rdtr3k: Or to remind us that Bethesda is teh devi1 and we need to boycott every game that they make?
Anyway,back to Arena and Daggerfall.
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snowkatt: and thats the only reason you necro'd this fucking thread ?

gee thanks

where are the air freshners ?
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l0rdtr3k:
i thought that was EA and squeenix
oh wel back to fallout 3 for me
low rated
I got freely downrepped for saying: "to do not forget".
as usual this forum is full of idiots.
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meudoland: as usual this forum is full of idiots.
Idiots who disagree with you to boot!
I'll go and play Wolfenstein: The New Order.
Wait a sec, who published it? Oh damn, it was Bethesda, wasn't it? Man.
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meudoland: I got freely downrepped for saying: "to do not forget".
as usual this forum is full of idiots.
the same idiots who necro'd a year old thread just to say "do not forgot " ?

whatever im going back to fallout 3
the wasteland waits for me
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l0rdtr3k: Or to remind us that Bethesda is teh devi1 and we need to boycott every game that they make?
Anyway,back to Arena and Daggerfall.
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snowkatt: and thats the only reason you necro'd this fucking thread ?

gee thanks

where are the air freshners ?
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l0rdtr3k:
Bethesda is probably subcontracted by Steam as their latest titles are exclusive developed for them. They stated in an interview about ARMA3 this is to exclude every non-steam player on the internet (they actual said it is to unite the player base). :P

//edit: WRONG Company, sorry!!!!!
I meant these guys: http://www.bistudio.com/
Post edited January 13, 2015 by disi
^mleh
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meudoland: I got freely downrepped for saying: "to do not forget".
as usual this forum is full of idiots.
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snowkatt: the same idiots who necro'd a year old thread just to say "do not forgot " ?

whatever im going back to fallout 3
the wasteland waits for me
Like I say all the time, you can hold a grudge but after awhile....


Some people just want to play Skyrim.
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disi: They stated in an interview about ARMA3 this is to exclude every non-steam player on the internet (they actual said it is to unite the player base). :P
a) That was Bohemia, not Bethesda
b) Valve actively encourages devs to bring their games to as many services aside from Steam as possible, and are clear that they don't require Steam exclusivity. So... Yeah
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disi: They stated in an interview about ARMA3 this is to exclude every non-steam player on the internet (they actual said it is to unite the player base). :P
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Fenixp: a) That was Bohemia, not Bethesda
b) Valve actively encourages devs to bring their games to as many services aside from Steam as possible, and are clear that they don't require Steam exclusivity. So... Yeah
I still cannot play ARMA3 without Steam... whereas I bought and can/could download ARMA1/2 from their website.