Posted October 15, 2018
darthspudius
Steam is Power!
Registered: May 2011
From United Kingdom
CMOT70
New User
Registered: Oct 2011
From Australia
Posted October 15, 2018
Quick saving is save scumming, and in old games you did need to do it quite often, the challenges were built around it.
Edit: that was a reply to above but it didn't work that way for some reason.
Edit: that was a reply to above but it didn't work that way for some reason.
Post edited October 15, 2018 by CMOT70
Nicole28
Huntress
Registered: Jan 2010
From Other
Posted October 15, 2018
I don't particularly have that type of nostalgia. In that, what I feel that I'd like or dislike has some objective merit and basis to go by. Since this thread is about the latter, I would say, one of that is pixel graphics. Not that pixel graphics is "wrong" mind you, certainly not! However, aren't we glad for more choices than pixels and 16-bit?
Post edited October 19, 2018 by Nicole28
Telika
Registered: Apr 2012
From Switzerland
Posted October 15, 2018
But don't forget the first function of saving : interrupting a game. It's very frustrating to lose progress because the game decided for longer gaming sessions than you have time for (in general or that day), or because of outside interruptions. Saving anywhere is very precious due to this.
In particular, save upon quitting is a very nice modern feature.
And I'm not against its abuse either. Saving and experimenting is a nice aspect of games, compared to life. So, the cost of having to dig into the game's folders to duplicate a file is a nice natural balance for such cases.
In particular, save upon quitting is a very nice modern feature.
And I'm not against its abuse either. Saving and experimenting is a nice aspect of games, compared to life. So, the cost of having to dig into the game's folders to duplicate a file is a nice natural balance for such cases.
Post edited October 15, 2018 by Telika
Lesser Blight Elemental
New User
Registered: Jun 2014
From Other
Posted October 15, 2018
Everyone seem to like NES and the 8-bit generation but it's misplaced. Back then games were heavily limited, and not just graphically but in terms of available space. Games had to pad out their pitiful content either by grinding or by being unfairly difficult trial-and-error affairs. And the endings were always an afterthought, which adds insult to injury. I'll say it, we had much, much lower standards back then. 16-bit was a huge upgrade and much more deserving of nostalgia.
People rag on ''bloody screen so real'' regenerating health, but is limited health really better? Yeah, it's a resource but it's not one you can spend tactically. It just gets depleted when you mess up. Do it too much and the level becomes unwinnable so you have to start over or savescum. Real engaging, right? Regenerating health has its problems, but at least it gives you the confidence as you advance further into the level that you have the tools you need to get through it, if you're good enough. The difficulty comes from the fight itself, not from how much health you enter it with.
And I'm sorry, but fifth-generation graphics were ass. I've only played a few games that haven't aged horrendously, including Final Fantasy 8 and 9. Not 7. Even back then we'd make fun of the character models.
People rag on ''bloody screen so real'' regenerating health, but is limited health really better? Yeah, it's a resource but it's not one you can spend tactically. It just gets depleted when you mess up. Do it too much and the level becomes unwinnable so you have to start over or savescum. Real engaging, right? Regenerating health has its problems, but at least it gives you the confidence as you advance further into the level that you have the tools you need to get through it, if you're good enough. The difficulty comes from the fight itself, not from how much health you enter it with.
And I'm sorry, but fifth-generation graphics were ass. I've only played a few games that haven't aged horrendously, including Final Fantasy 8 and 9. Not 7. Even back then we'd make fun of the character models.
Post edited October 15, 2018 by TentacleMayor
MartiusR
Eques Christi
Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Trilarion
New User
Registered: Jul 2010
From Germany
Posted October 15, 2018
DRM is mostly still the same, was evil then, is evil now.
Now to the list of things that have gotten worse...
Just kidding. Actually what amazes me most about the good old days is the sheer number of video games they made in the 90s and early 00s. Thousands and thousands of games. A source of big creativity. Now the big publishers make much bigger games and more expensive ones too, but also much less of them.
Nirth
Songs of Conquest
Registered: Oct 2010
From Other
Posted October 15, 2018
Nowadays I'm sensitive to immersion breaks but that is very low on my list. Unnecessary cluttered HUDs, difficult spikes (either way) achievement pop ups are the worst.
dnovraD
2023-08-14: Remember the Spaces!
Registered: Jul 2012
From United States
Posted October 15, 2018
20 or so individual stats, and not a descriptor to be found anywhere. Not even the old Exile games were immune to this. Tool tips are an amazing invention.
The constant fear that a misplaced magnet could ruin everything from your monitor to your disk drives.
Having to rely on a gaming magazine subscription to know that a game was even coming or existed.
Further to that, said game never coming out, never being localized, or falling into development hell and coming out on another system long after you forgot it.
Still along those lines, reading a review or expose of a game, only for said game to be utter pits. (Bubsy, countless Mega Drive games, licenced games)
The constant fear that a misplaced magnet could ruin everything from your monitor to your disk drives.
Having to rely on a gaming magazine subscription to know that a game was even coming or existed.
Further to that, said game never coming out, never being localized, or falling into development hell and coming out on another system long after you forgot it.
Still along those lines, reading a review or expose of a game, only for said game to be utter pits. (Bubsy, countless Mega Drive games, licenced games)
Nirth
Songs of Conquest
Registered: Oct 2010
From Other
Posted October 15, 2018
That's a good one. I remember playing the MMO Tibia where I died once and lost 1.5 levels, skills and equipment I had spent hours acquiring. Suffice to say, losing time like that is a young human's game imo. I read that you could lose a couple of levels per death at really high levels and those people likely spent weeks or months getting there.
idbeholdME
Doomed Space Marine
Registered: Jun 2016
From Czech Republic
Posted October 15, 2018
But both as a gamer and designer I consider checkpoints a much more elegant solution. I don't think that portioning challenges is something that should be the player's responsibility. It's just not a valid gameplay decision and if you have the ability to save at any point, the thought of when to save just keeps muddling the gameplay experience which should be focused on how to survive, how to kill etc.. That or you keep hitting the save key as often as the jump key.
If you are bound on limiting the player's options and so worried about your preciously balanced fights, you can easily fix that by disabling saves while in combat. Many games have done that and I find that it is an acceptable middle ground.
Not to mention the annoyance of checkpoints with things like:
1) Finish a fight at 10HP
2) Spend 10 minutes scrounging the level for health, armor, ammo and secrets
3) Miss a jump right before the next checkpoint
4) Have fun repeating 2) or most likely:
5) Just exit the game for the day
OR you can just:
1) Have the ability to save when you want.
2) ????
3) Profit
A thing that's pretty infuriating about old action games is that levels would often be too convoluted. Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Jedi Knight, you name it. The biggest challenge would often be finding the right way or button to press etc., it's what would usually make you get stuck rather than tough combat challenges. Some environmental puzzles or sections where navigation is meant to be challenging, that's okay, but it's not okay if you're playing a fast-paced shooter and what's giving you a hard time is something entirely detached from the (alleged) core gameplay. It's most infuriating, though, when this shit happens in a game that does not even have "maze" design, like Soldier of Fortune II, which is basically a tunnel shooter but will once in a while give you a pretty wide area where you have to find a tiny ventilation shaft or suddenly have to execute a risky jump between two obscure spots.
If you can't control yourself with saves and it is detrimental to your enjoyment of the game, only you are to blame. If you spam save to such a degree that you get annoyed, it is not the game's fault. And if you are actually good, you rarely have to resort to save scumming. Having to reload every 10 seconds should be your cue to reduce the difficulty, not blame the save system.
tiny E
Find me in STEAM OT
Registered: Dec 2012
From Other
Posted October 15, 2018
dtgreene
vaccines work she/her
Registered: Jan 2010
From United States
Posted October 15, 2018
IMO, this sort of limitation is only sensible in games where there is a clear combat/non-combat distinction, like in traditional JRPGs and early WRPGs. In games where combat doesn't take you to a separate screen, you run into situations where the game thinks you're in combat (and won't let you save/rest), but where there isn't any enemy attacking you that you can see, which gets incredibly frustrating.
The first part of TES: Arena has this issue with resting; there may not be any enemies attacking you, but the game won't let you rest because "there are enemies nearby" (or something of that sort). (Fortunately, this game doesn't restrict saving that way.)
In other words, with this sort of limitation, you need a good definition of "in combat"; if you don't have a good one, you shouldn't inplement such a rule.
(Incidentally, I think I don't like "rest anywhere" as a mechanic, though even worse is "rest anywhere except in town" (which TES: Arena has), since I feel that towns should be the safe space where you rest, not the wilderness.)
Telika: But don't forget the first function of saving : interrupting a game. It's very frustrating to lose progress because the game decided for longer gaming sessions than you have time for (in general or that day), or because of outside interruptions. Saving anywhere is very precious due to this.
In particular, save upon quitting is a very nice modern feature.
And I'm not against its abuse either. Saving and experimenting is a nice aspect of games, compared to life. So, the cost of having to dig into the game's folders to duplicate a file is a nice natural balance for such cases. For games with relatively short stages (like classic Mega Man), save after every stage is generaly good enough. (I note that Mega Man stages are like that until the castle stages, at which point there are no more places to save, which as I nave mentioned is a crippling flaw of MM4-6.)
Also, I am of the opinion that games shouldn't require players to gig into the game's folders just to experiment without affecting their main save file. (It's one of the reasons I dislike permadeath.)
The first part of TES: Arena has this issue with resting; there may not be any enemies attacking you, but the game won't let you rest because "there are enemies nearby" (or something of that sort). (Fortunately, this game doesn't restrict saving that way.)
In other words, with this sort of limitation, you need a good definition of "in combat"; if you don't have a good one, you shouldn't inplement such a rule.
(Incidentally, I think I don't like "rest anywhere" as a mechanic, though even worse is "rest anywhere except in town" (which TES: Arena has), since I feel that towns should be the safe space where you rest, not the wilderness.)
In particular, save upon quitting is a very nice modern feature.
And I'm not against its abuse either. Saving and experimenting is a nice aspect of games, compared to life. So, the cost of having to dig into the game's folders to duplicate a file is a nice natural balance for such cases.
Also, I am of the opinion that games shouldn't require players to gig into the game's folders just to experiment without affecting their main save file. (It's one of the reasons I dislike permadeath.)
Post edited October 15, 2018 by dtgreene
dtgreene
vaccines work she/her
Registered: Jan 2010
From United States
Posted October 15, 2018
1. Rogue had regenerating health; it's not a new mechanic.
2. Health can, indeed, be spent tactically. For example, you can choose to spend health instead of using a powerful attack that costs another resource or taking the time to dodge enemy attacks. Also, in many games you become invincible after getting hit, allowing you to just walk through an enemy that would otherwise be a pain, or remove the risk of another enemy knocking you back into a pit. There' s also the strategy of damage boosting, by taking advantage of knockback; in the original Castlevania, for example, you can skip the segment of the first block that has mermen and water pits. (Try watching a speedrun of Castlevania, or of the NES Ninja Gaiden games (especially pacifist speedruns), to see how health can be effectively be used as a resource.)
(How would you feel about a game that only let you save in combat?)
Edit: Also, not all challenges are combat challenges. Platforming challenges, for example.
In this case, I think point 2 can be largely eliminated by having the player respawn with full health and ammo after a death; hence the only thing to look for is secrets, and one's memory can reduce the time needed to repeat 2 after a failure.
Post edited October 15, 2018 by dtgreene
jonridan
Not so new user
Registered: Jan 2012
From Argentina
Posted October 15, 2018
What I don't miss the most, or rather hate nowadays in old games, is the lack of color depth. Games had colors, a lot, yeah... But it was like maybe 32 colors in total. Once 16bit graphics became the norm eveything looked nicer. I don't care about resolution, I don't care about dynamic lighting, and stuff like that, but I just can't stand lack of variety within colors.