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Totenglocke: So being consistent with in-game (and D&D) lore is "shoving a political agenda and morality" on people?
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ydobemos: Please quote me the "in-game and D&D lore" that endorses sexism (even though the very first character creation sub-screen does the exact opposite) and states that gay and bi people do not exist.
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Totenglocke: So you ARE unaware of what's been happening in the gaming industry for the last two years.
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ydobemos: If you're talking about the 'Gamergate' idiocy then yes, I am very well aware of what's been happening: a bunch of woman-haters seized on a pack of lies from a female game developer's abusive ex-boyfriend as an excuse to start a loosely-formed hate movement and engage in activities ranging from insults and harassment to literal terrorism to try to belittle, silence and drive out women, and anyone who doesn't hate women (and also LGBT people when they feel like it), in the games industry.
So you admit that you're 100% uninformed and think gamers are "evil sexists" just because they exist. Thanks for clearing that up, we all know to ignore you now.
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Totenglocke: So you admit that you're 100% uninformed and think gamers are "evil sexists" just because they exist. Thanks for clearing that up, we all know to ignore you now.
Er...no. I didn't say anything that began remotely to resemble that. Unless, of course, you think the 'Gamergate' hate movement is representative of gamers in general, in which case, I am glad to say, you are completely wrong. Gamergate is about as representative of gamers as Stormfront is of white people.
Thanks for the article. I am now more interested in this game than I was before. (Of course, I still don't like the Infinity Engine's real time with pause battle system enough to actually buy it at the moment, but that's unrelated.)
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dtgreene: Thanks for the article. I am now more interested in this game than I was before. (Of course, I still don't like the Infinity Engine's real time with pause battle system enough to actually buy it at the moment, but that's unrelated.)
So you'll buy a game for inserting completely out of place gender issues? This is why games are getting worse and worse each year and why we have things like Blizzard removing a character from Overwatch because idiots are offended that one of the characters was an attractive female.
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Totenglocke: ...completely out of place gender issues?
I repeat: please quote me the "in-game and D&D lore" that endorses sexism (even though the very first character creation sub-screen does the exact opposite) and states that gay and bi people do not exist.
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Totenglocke: So being consistent with in-game (and D&D) lore is "shoving a political agenda and morality" on people?
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ydobemos: Please quote me the "in-game and D&D lore" that endorses sexism (even though the very first character creation sub-screen does the exact opposite) and states that gay and bi people do not exist.
Actually, I can, well, sort of.

AD&D 1e Player's Handbook, page 9, lists lower strength limits for female characters. The table on page 15 does as well.

(Note that this is contrary to the quote on page 6: "You will find ... no baseless limits on female strength or male charisma." No limit on male charisma appears here.)

Fortunately, this sexist rule was removed in 2nd edition, and is therefore not implemented in any of the Infinity Engine games. (The SSI Gold Box games do implement this rule, however.)

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dtgreene: Thanks for the article. I am now more interested in this game than I was before. (Of course, I still don't like the Infinity Engine's real time with pause battle system enough to actually buy it at the moment, but that's unrelated.)
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Totenglocke: So you'll buy a game for inserting completely out of place gender issues? This is why games are getting worse and worse each year and why we have things like Blizzard removing a character from Overwatch because idiots are offended that one of the characters was an attractive female.
Yes, and I don't think they're ever "out of place".
Post edited April 03, 2016 by dtgreene
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Madoga: You know as well as I do that these things are socially stigmatized in most modern, and especially in old, cultures.
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ydobemos: Yes. And that was and is a bad thing, so let's not go along with it, eh?
While I agree it's a bad thing, portrating it in a fictional universe isn't a bad thing. And if a universe is established - and let me exaggerate here - to be completely morally bankrupt, I have absolutely no problem with that.

In fact, I like playing in these kinds of universes. Especially if they give you the option to do something about it(taking account for 'human' nature), go against the odds,and so on. This especially includes drow society, which is the exact opposite of what one would expect of old patriarchal society. In fact, I think this is what draws a lot of people to these kinds of universes. All universes with different races and cultures have problems relating to these tensions. Drow hates elves, elves hate drow. This is what makes the universe interesting.
I would also have no problem if they added more tension to the mix. I just want them to do it in a proper fashion. Not in between two established games.

I would be just as disappointed if they removed condescending sexist jokes by drow women towards men, as I would be disappointed if they removed sexist jokes by character X towards the tavern wench. And yes, obviously it's sexist, that's how that society works. Having racism and sexism as a theme in your game however doesn't make the game racist or sexist. It's a theme in the game, that's all it is.

But I guess I'll just wait until they fixed most of the bugs and then ask some people who have actually played the game.
I'm actually more worried by the dig at Pillars of Eternity to be honest. If he thought that Pillars of Eternity was too hard to understand, and he expects players to look up all background info on the internet instead of learning it in the game, then I'm probably not going to be interested in whatever new story they came up with for Baldur's Gate. I don't have encylopedic knowledge of D&D, but still Baldur's Gate II did a very good job of including everything it needed to have in order for the story to make sense. I never felt like I was totally lost and needing to look things up every two seconds, so I am very wary about this new expansion apparently relying heavily on players already knowing everything or looking it up.

Having said that, I do agree with the point the other writer made about Jaheira. Not that any of the characters in Baldur's Gate 1 had that much development, but Jaheira was really really annoying in an over-the-top way. I played Baldur's Gate 2 with a mod to activate all of the romances at once because I didn't want to miss anything and I was really pleasantly surprised at how much more depth she has in that, although it's a shame that more of that didn't come across in regular non-romance quests. I think it would be interesting to see more of that while Khalil is actually alive and see them happy together (at least for awhile).

But yeah, I'm not paying $20 for something that's apparently very buggy and where I have doubts about the quality. Maybe when it's cheaper and after more reviews are out.
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It's an RPG. If you don't like an NPC... kill them, or don't talk to them. This is literally the only situation where you can respond to political opinions you don't like with violence and not bad a bad person.

I didn't like the Slavers in Morrowind, so I killed them. I didn't like the cannibals in fallout 3, so I killed them too. Hell, I didn't like Xzar and Montaron because I don't play evil scumbaggs and I always hated that they were the first two companions you ran into after Imoen and I had to make the walk to Friendly Arms as a party of two because I didn't want their evil stink on my group.

But I never bitched about there being evil characters in the game, or accused the developers of pushing an "Evil Agenda" because I'm not an asshole.

Now, somewhere out there, there is a bowl-cuted angry lesbian, who is enjoying this game because now she/he/it has a character them/those/that can connect with, and that is a good thing. More game players = more games.

It's an RPG. If you don't like an NPC kill them, or don't talk to them. Stop acting like children.
I still don't understand how having people who are different than you is a political issue. I've seen no talk of gay marriages or gay rights. If you don't like a LGBT romance, just turn them down or don't add them to your party. And it is weird you didn't expect this when both Dorn and Hexxat in the original Enhanced Editions were bi/gay.
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So what everyone was speculating about them taking the "Bioware-diversity" route turned out to be true.

Not too surprised after the Enhanced Editions though.
I don't see a problem with any of the stuff in BG. I mean if it forced you to play a gay/bi/etc character I might agree with you. But everything is optional - it's not like Dorn forces himself on you.

Now if you said Beamdog shouldn't do gay characters because they suck at characterizing them I might agree with you. I'm sorry - but Hexxat was a lesbian and a vampire and that was it. Out of all the NPCs who could join you in BG2 she was the most one-dimensional.

Its not like there haven't been any LGBT characters in BG at all - just ask Edwina ;)

I'm curious as to how the transgendered character is like though. In a world where magic can flawlessly transmute one's gender (including reproductive ability) I must wonder why said person hasn't taken that step (or how you found out they did).
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If you doubt the downward spiral of video game writing, look at the guy in this thread who thinks the existence of sexist characters, and characters acting in a way he deems Problematic, to be sexist and/or a result of sexism. Now imagine that these people are either in the position of video game writers, their bosses, or the writers/bosses are pandering to them out of delusion that this is actually progressive and improves the product or it's sales (SJ-pandering games tend to sell like shit fyi) or are terrified into doing so because they think they'll lose their careers and reputation and lives to baseless declarations of bigotry (the SJW weapon of choice, see the guy I mentioned).

It's FICTION. It doesn't matter what happens within it, because it's fake. It's not real people involved. And the idea that it encourages bigotry or wrongthink is so debunked that if every debunk was a brick then you could build a roman coliseum with them. It's is absolutely and utterly abhorrent that people are demanding creative mandates and censorship upon FICTION, the stories people want to tell that most often aren't allegories or political statements (I know that's hard to grasp for people who judge everyone and everything by race/sex/sex pref/etc, but give it a try). “This character acts in a way that I find offensive.” Yeah because there’s absolutely no one in the world who’d ever act like Jaheira or whatshername, and the idea that such a person could exist is just plain offensive. I know a robust Louisianan black women who talks and acts almost exactly like what you’re imagining right now. Should I walk up to her and tell her that her existence is Problematic? Or is that only okay when she’s a fictional character? Also, who the hell are you? Who elected you to be the morality preacher and policer of billions of people as well as what they consume? Sure as hell not the hundreds of millions to billions in the first world who largely get along fine and barely notice or care about things like race and gender and who you want to bang, and yet are the main targets of all these accusations of systematic/institutionalized bigotry and rape culture and whatever over the cultures that actually do these things.

And in the inclusion of all these pandering characters… I hate to break it to you, but gays and trans are a tiny percentage of the human population. Very much the exception. There aren’t a whole lot of gay people in the world and transsexuals, real transexuals not all these twenty year old brats who delude themselves into thinking they're trans because they so want to feel special (when I was growing up thinking they were gay and/or joining the furry fandom was what they did), are vastly dwarfed by THEIR numbers. And yet all of the sudden there’s these characters in every game, sometimes several. You can’t throw a brick without hitting one. Knowing why these characters are appearing makes it impossible to take seriously, and it breaks player immersion which is not good for an RPG. And none of these pandering characters are actually characters, or anything other than a platform to shove their existence down your throat. Alphys from Undertale for example isn’t defined by her being gay, that’s just a component of a character who is defined by the way she acts, what she does, what she’s done or hasn’t done, and her relationships with other characters. And by and large people were fine with her and other gay/bi characters in the game because they come off as plausible and three-dimensional CHARACTERS. The same cannot be said about the walking sockpuppets in this game, who exist to be gay and be trans and scold the player for not being a tool while being male.

Not even going to bother with the accusations against GamerGate. The idea that some people are still sticking to the unproven declarations of bigotry and harassment being committed by users of a consumer revolt hashtag, spoken by radical ideologues and professional victims who are proven guilty of every single thing they accuse GamerGate of, is laughable.

Step out of your safe space sometimes you uneducated and paranoid little brat, and take a look at the world around you. The real world, not the one Kotaku made up.
Post edited April 03, 2016 by TheTWF
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TheTWF: If you doubt the downward spiral of video game writing, look at the guy in this thread who thinks the existence of sexist characters, and characters acting in a way he deems Problematic, to be sexist and/or a result of sexism. Now imagine that these people are either in the position of video game writers, their bosses, or the writers/bosses are pandering to them out of delusion that this is actually progressive and improves the product or it's sales (SJ-pandering games tend to sell like shit fyi) or are terrified into doing so because they think they'll lose their careers and reputation and lives to baseless declarations of bigotry (the SJW weapon of choice, see the guy I mentioned).

It's FICTION. It doesn't matter what happens within it, because it's fake. It's not real people involved. And the idea that it encourages bigotry or wrongthink is so debunked that if every debunk was a brick then you could build a roman coliseum with them. It's is absolutely and utterly abhorrent that people are demanding creative mandates and censorship upon FICTION, the stories people want to tell that most often aren't allegories or political statements (I know that's hard to grasp for people who judge everyone and everything by race/sex/sex pref/etc, but give it a try). “This character acts in a way that I find offensive.” Yeah because there’s absolutely no one in the world who’d ever act like Jaheira or whatshername, and the idea that such a person could exist is just plain offensive. I know a robust Louisianan black women who talks and acts almost exactly like what you’re imagining right now. Should I walk up to her and tell her that her existence is Problematic? Or is that only okay when she’s a fictional character? Also, who the hell are you? Who elected you to be the morality preacher and policer of billions of people as well as what they consume? Sure as hell not the hundreds of millions to billions in the first world who largely get along fine and barely notice or care about things like race and gender and who you want to bang, and yet are the main targets of all these accusations of systematic/institutionalized bigotry and rape culture and whatever over the cultures that actually do these things.

And in the inclusion of all these pandering characters… I hate to break it to you, but gays and trans are a tiny percentage of the human population. Very much the exception. There aren’t a whole lot of gay people in the world and transsexuals, real transexuals not all these twenty year old brats who delude themselves into thinking they're trans because they so want to feel special (when I was growing up thinking they were gay and/or joining the furry fandom was what they did), are vastly dwarfed by THEIR numbers. And yet all of the sudden there’s these characters in every game, sometimes several. You can’t throw a brick without hitting one. Knowing why these characters are appearing makes it impossible to take seriously, and it breaks player immersion which is not good for an RPG. And none of these pandering characters are actually characters, or anything other than a platform to shove their existence down your throat. Alphys from Undertale for example isn’t defined by her being gay, that’s just a component of a character who is defined by the way she acts, what she does, what she’s done or hasn’t done, and her relationships with other characters. And by and large people were fine with her and other gay/bi characters in the game because they come off as plausible and three-dimensional CHARACTERS. The same cannot be said about the walking sockpuppets in this game, who exist to be gay and be trans and scold the player for not being a tool while being male.

Not even going to bother with the accusations against GamerGate. The idea that some people are still sticking to the unproven declarations of bigotry and harassment being committed by users of a consumer revolt hashtag, spoken by radical ideologues and professional victims who are proven guilty of every single thing they accuse GamerGate of, is laughable.

Step out of your safe space sometimes you uneducated and paranoid little brat, and take a look at the world around you. The real world, not the one Kotaku made up.
A perfect summary of the situation. I got tired of hearing the people screaming about how EVERYTHING must cater to the minority of gays / trans / mentally disabled / physically disabled / etc. If you want to address those issues in a game, make a game specifically about that or have it actually be RELEVANT to the plot. I've seen a YouTube clip of the trans character that they put in this expansion - it literally adds NOTHING to the plot at all and you're not even allowed to say anything about it in the dialogue options. It was put there simply so that the writers / devs could say "Look how trendy we are? We put a trans character into a D&D game!". I don't care about bi / gay characters in Mass Effect or Dragon Age because it's their own unique lore. I've read plenty of D&D books and played plenty of D&D PC games over the last 20 years - that's NOT something that is a normal part of the lore, hence it shouldn't be forced into it. If Beamdog had made their own unique RPG and put in gay / trans / multi-species characters, I wouldn't care in the slightest (as long as they didn't spew hatred for straight / sane / white / male people in their interviews). This has me not wanting to ever give another cent to Beamdog and there are plenty of others on various gaming forums who are finding out about this and deciding to vote with their wallet. They're a small company and can't afford for this to be a massive flop due to consumer backlash over them forcing their agenda into the game.
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I find it hilarious you can say that "people who find sexiest characters offensive should get over it, it's fiction and doesn't count because it's all made up" and at the same time bitch and moan about a queer character because it's "pandering" and disrepresentative of that actual number of gay people on the planet. Hypocrisy. Also a ridiculous argument to begin with is fiction is fictitious and therefore beyond criticism. Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, if you made up a world where having sex with 10 year olds was socially acceptable, then no one should complain when you depict a character having sex with a 10 year old.

Sexism is shitty behavior. If you are an author, and you have complete control over shaping that world, it's tone and social norms why would you include shitty behavior? Especially when it is no benefit to the story, and only serves to irritate and alienat a portion of the game playing community.