I've tried being patient and giving the benefit of the doubt, but I feel this needs to be posted as a warning to those considering buying This War Of Mine either on GOG, Steam or *any* other platform.

This War of Mine is a *great* game, however the dev's utter disrespect for their customers means I will never buy anything from them again. I've given them ample time to "make good" but they clearly only care about chasing the newest cash source.

The evidence:
1) Initial release on 4 platforms: Steam, Humble (IIRC), GOG and their own webstore.
2) Do not give the same extras to all platforms even though all are digital and cost the same at launch.
3) Release DLC that can *only* be bought and used with the Steam version (via odd "donation" scheme).
4) Abandon *all* platforms re: updates, except Steam, after a few months.
5) Ignore modding on all platforms except Steam Workshop (despite alternatives like Nexus).
6) Give excuses "we'd like to... we're working on it" whenever asked about updates for abandoned platforms.
7) Provide most of their information on non-English sites or via YouTube (!). Never even visit GOG forums.
8) Re-release the game on PS4 consoles but don't let PC customers buy the "exclusive" DLC... not even on Steam!

To me, that's not a one off tricky publishing agreement tying hands, or a case of slower releases on other platforms due to unavoidable reasons (i.e. GOG manual patch checks, lack of Steam Workshop). This is a clear history of a developer not caring about *any* of their customers after getting their money. After all, even Steam buyers who were the only PC customers to be supported have now been screwed over with the 'Little Ones' DLC.

It's a shame, because the game *was* really good and different, and with proper mod support could have been awesome... but 11bit's disrespect for their customers has absolutely ruined it for me, as well as any future products from them.

I expect big devs to screw over customers with exclusive deals, withheld content, etc. but when a small dev like 11bit act like this, it makes me really sad. Indie devs need to remember that they live or die by word of mouth and loyal customer support.

For the record (and perhaps perspective on my anger) I've bought this game legitimately on GOG, Steam and PS4. That's three times I've paid 11bit for this game, and none of these three versions I own is the "complete" product. What does "fool me three times" equal? :(

Apologies for the rant, but I always read the forums for a new game before buying, especially one from an unknown dev, and I felt the sparsity of this board (compared to Steam, for obvious reasons) meant this warning needed to be posted here more than anywhere else.

You have some valid points, but - it has been discussed more eloquently by others on this forum - we have to remember 11 bit studios is a relatively small company. It actually does take them a lot of time for the to improve on the game and provide support to different platforms or consoles. Yes we are still version 1.3 and Steam now has 2.03 and it sucks. Hopefully they will provide an update for us sooner rather than later. We also have to remember Steam may need exclusive updates due to complications unique to them. Interfacing with Steam's DRM or Workshop does not always go smoothly.

I've posted it on this forum since it was recently announced, Little Children will be coming to PC. There is no word on where or how, so it may not end up on GOG right off the bat. But the fact they are providing content that was PS4 and Xbox exclusive content is nice. I don't agree with it, but there is a strategy used in the industry that believes in encouraging sales in different consoles by providing exclusive content to said console releases. Especially if the console release is done some time after initial release. Both Independent and AAA companies have done this, so yes it sucks that 11 bit did this, but at least they are providing it across the board now.

The charity DLC is exclusively on Steam, because that was an exclusive charity developed by Steam and 11 Bit Studios. The Charity DLC is not available on PS4 (which I also have) or here because of that. It would be difficult for Steam and other platforms/consoles to provide the Charity DLC across the board since it was a charity created with and not for Steam. If it is odd on donation scheme, I think it is due to Steam providing users different tiers of donating depending on their desire of how much they wish to support the charity. If you mean it is odd in a different way, then I'm sorry for misunderstanding.

Other platforms like Steam, can make it easier for said companies to achieve a secure and steady flow of income faster than others. Also, Steam Workshop is not the best modding tool, but it is easier to impliment updates and support for it since it is regulated by one entity - Steam's Staff - and not a community like Nexus. 11 bit studios is not the only company to use this, but they are trying to provide continued support for other platforms like GOG. Also, when they were pirated, they actually provided free game keys - it was on Steam, but I've never heard of a company offering free games keys of any kind to people who have literally stolen a copy of their game - and a reply of understanding. Polygon, Escapist Magazine, and many others have reported on this very topic. Just search for: This War of Mine Piracy. If they only cared about profits, that would not be how to go about it, at least that is not what is traditionally or typically done. One need only look at Stoic and The Banner Saga to see their reaction. They even went as far to say that a DRM free version is not even being worked on for Episode 2 due to the spike in Piracy after Banner Saga was released on GOG. Check the Banner Saga forum here to get a better idea of the current discussion on that.

Lack of English sites, I only got that when I searched on my Cell. When I go to their website on my PC, it is all in English. Their forum on 11 bit studios is also in English.

I agree with you that 11 bit is lacking when it comes to support for us on GOG and I do not know if they actually view on this forum or not. Again, this is a small company and many small comapnies typically focus on their own forum or a major off site one like Steam. I'm not excusing them, but holding them to a standard that only much bigger companies (like EA) is a bit harsh.

No one is perfect, but all things considered, I think 11 bit does more right than not. They have not done everything right, but I say they have done more right than other companies. EA and Ubisofe may be super successful, but they are also well known for poor customer support and rarely listening to their audience.

Finally, I'm not trying to bash you or troll you. Just providing some info and a counter point to your critique with my own.

I have absolutely no problem with someone presenting their own thoughts. Mine are certainly not the final word on the subject! :)

I do disagree that 11bit being "small" is an excuse for poor treatment of customers, though. It makes me very sympathetic when they struggle with issues like delays in fixing bugs, but IMO being indie devs makes them look *worse* when they abandon certain customers in favor of the next sale. I expect that from the likes of EA or Activision. Unlike one of those giant companies who can screw customers but know enough people will still buy their next Call of Duty XXIII so it doesn't matter to them, an indie dev lives or dies by their reputation. It's why I am far more angry with 11bit for abandoning non-Steam buyers than - say - someone like Capcom signing exclusivity deals with a console manufacturer. Indie devs should know and be better than that.

Almost all my favourite games from the last five years have been indie or small studio games. I have got more fun and value out of NeoScavenger and Project Zomboid than *any* AAA title I own. Conversely, I will never buy a game from the dev of Underrail despite liking the game itself, as they have deliberately ignored every support email and forum post by those burned when their original chosen distribution platform went bankrupt. Indies need to earn trust and build customer relations, not burn bridges.

To be fair, every time I've had an issue with an Ubisoft, EA, etc. game and have contacted their support, they *have* eventually solved my issue (non-working/missing DLC, for example) even if was a runaround. A lot of indie devs sadly don't even respond to emails or provide terrible support (HBS' Shadowrun games are an example of great indie games with terrible bug support, for example). Honestly, it might sound harsh, but if you can't support your games and customers properly, maybe you're not ready to release them and certainly shouldn't be charging AAA prices (as more and more indies are these days)? If I open a burger store and my cafe's hygiene is terrible because I can't afford cleaning staff but McDonald's can, being an 'indie' business doesn't mean people should buy from me and just suck it up.

Back to 11bit directly again, though, the PS4 'Little Ones' release fiasco (Steam users were pretty angry!) just shows how much they've further hurt their reputation by simply not communicating properly. Had they said on release of the PS4 version: "this will be PC DLC in several months, but the only way we got this on PS4 was to sign a deal to make it a timed exclusive", I'd have no problem and I suspect others few would. Timed exclusives are a sad but expected part of being a gamer these days. But by initially saying "not for PC, maybe eventually, only if we can", and communicating so little with customers (updating via YouTube comments over Steam forums, really?), any later damage control to port the DLC to PC later comes across as too little too late.

As for DRM-free support, I would honestly respect any dev FAR more if they only release on Steam from the start, if that was the only platform they planned to support - or the only one they could due to Steam Workshop. Would I have bought TWOM in that case still? Maybe, yeah. I avoid Steam whenever I can but will buy there if a game is *only* there and I really want it. I wouldn't feel conned or cheated like I do having bought on GOG and then seen myself and fellow customers here not given the slightest attention, apology or consideration by the devs, though.

With the charity DLC... what is stopping them picking a flat price for the likes of GOG or releasing it free with a "donate" button or something? There are lots of ways to do it, hence my feeling they just couldn't be bothered even though this would mean more money for charity than not offering it at all.

Finally, I actually *did* know about them giving away free copies to those who pirated the game and was going to mention it but decided not to. While I personally come down on the "hardcore anti-piracy stances only hurt legit customers" side of that whole debate, I find it insulting to those of us who did the right thing and bought the game legally (in cases like mine, multiple times) seeing pirate users getting given free copies! They already got a "free" copy and hopefully will buy a legit one if they want it! The devs giving them the game for free makes me feel like a fool for not pirating it myself! I certainly don't agree with companies who chase pirates rabidly and who are always making excuses why they can only use Steam because of them, but going the other way just makes legit customers feel even more shafted, IMO.

Short version: being an indie should make you *more* accountable to your customers not less, IMO, and while releasing on GOG as well as Steam is awesome, a dev should stick to only one platform if they have no intention or ability to support others. Also, giving the game free to those who pirate it makes legit customers look and feel devalued.

It shows they are no longer indy, as they are no longer free.

Abandoning loyal customers in favor of chasing the next sale is a douche move whether you're a small independent 'mom and pop' business (of any kind) or a big faceless corporate entity. It sadly happens a lot in all sorts of industries though.

However, I stand by my feeling that when a small business (or dev) does it, it is *much* more harmful to them. A huge company that doesn't care about past customers usually rely on new ones making up any losses, hence why they often get away with such tactics. A small studio (or business) who mistreat previous customers will find that their future sales would have largely been reliant on that same established customer base, who have a long memory for such things.

I do not care for their reasons, they're never going to see a cent more from me. Why should a consumer pay for producer that does not hold up his side of the trade?

Banjo_oz

It seems your main issues are:
1) 11bit has abondoned a group of their loyal customers - in this case GoG users - via their lack of updates and communication and not monitoring forums

2) They pulled some very underhanded strategies in selling their game, when they should have been more forward.

3) The fact they multi-platform and console release should not have been done if 11bit was/is unable to support it.

If I misunderstood, again my appologies. With your permission, I would like to repost your thread on the 11bit forum. We may not get a response, but I think if the doctor won't come to the patient, we take the patient to the doctor. That way the doc doesn't get away with "I didn't know," excuse.

I understand some of your frustration, but again I must restate that this is a tiny - seriously like 40 employees, that means if they do have a PR/Marketing/Social Media team, it would literally be about the size of 2 - 4 people - non-english studio. Yes, several members speak fluent english, but I imagine they would be spread a bit thin in replying to all the posts as well as develop patches/fixes to their current games while developing new games. No game is perfect, and no company is perfect, but to expect them to be able to do all that like even bigger yet indie companies - like Stoic - in their non native language is a bit harsh. Most PR teams usually role like 20 or 30 people just to handle the sheer numbers of requests and posts they recieve on a daily/weekly basis in their own language.

Also, even though some AAA companies do usually monitor multiple non-affiliated forums - Steam, Origin, GameFAQ, Humble, GoG, PS4, Xbox - they also strongly recommend to report bugging issues on their forums or to even directly contact them. Also, they strongly emphasize that official updates or timetables will only be posted by them on their forums. I remember having to do that with EA and Bioware for Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 before getting a response or - for Mass Effect at least - a timetable for when a patch might come out. Stoic was better with response than 11bit, but Stoic crowd sourced where 11bit did not so more communication was a literal requirement for Stoic's case. But even then, Stoic has acted pretty hostile to criticism from users and GoG backers.

The fact you feel insulted that 11bit gave free copies to pirates is unfortunate, but I think it furthers my point. You stated in your earlier post that 11bit only cared for profits. If they did, the last thing they should do is something that gives free copies to known thieves while at the same time upsets their customers. Polygon and EscapistMagazine did a better job, but I think 11bit is trying to do something other companies are not: instead of hunting/fighting pirates that ultimately leads to punishing honest users like us, they are trying to give these people an honest chance to do the right thing and buy the game if they truly enjoyed it. They see the pirating as a forgone conclusion and are powerless to stop - much like a siege in the city our favorite characters live in - but are trying to bring some good out of this for all. This resonates with the very nature of the game. Instead of providing a glory gun-nut game, they create a game that really makes you look at how strong your morality is in a hard situation.

The charity thing, yeah I got nothing there. ;-p But I would like to use your post on 11bit Studios forum and see how they respond. Maybe we will get an answer we won't like, if we get one at all, but I think it is only fair to give them a chance to explain themselves rather than speculate.

I know this may sound a bit optimistic, but I don't think 11bit has abondoned us. It has just literally taken this long to providing support for us. Some of the bugs - according to their forums, like the morale loss for stealing Private Property the Church even if the Priest is dead and there are only thugs - have literally only recently been fixed. Again, some of those patches may be Steam Exclusive since they are for Steam issues like their DRM or what have you. Further, Steam sales alone allowed them to recoup most of their costs in the first week, so I can see why Steam would take priority even if Steam didn't force 11bit into a one sided contract which is the usual case for the extremely big Platforms.

Frankly, the fact they launched a game on different platforms and didn't have many if at all game crashing bugs is amazing. I've yet to buy a recently released game from EA, Activision, or Ubisoft in the last six years that hasn't crashed in the early days or has a bug that makes it literally impossible to progress the game/plot. I seriously remember having to wait 6 months to play Assassin's Creed (Choose your number here) until they fixed some issues, same for Dragon Age II. Do not get me started on Gearbox and Homeworld. Activision sheer demand of money for DLC that is half cosmetic, other half bugged or disappointing has prevented me from buying the Division. I'm not saying they always launched an incomplete or overly bugged game, but it is not the norm. The bugs on 11bit are annoying, but not game ending.

The strategies aren't good for the user, but if you can name five companies that are completely ethical, I'm all ears. Seriously, even if I don't want to play their games, I will buy them to show my support. But I doubt there are even 3 out there that do not abuse gamers in some serious way. The fact is, the gaming industry has only recently begun to actually take gamers/their fans opinions and feedback seriously. One needs to only look at Half Life 3 - or the lack there of - to see the dominate trend is to produce profits and not consider the well being of gamers. Both Indie and AAA companies do this.

Indie companies have it rough since they don't have the financing of the big studios to go toe to toe with the distributers. Usually, they are forced to sign some very one sided contracts in order to release their game on that distrubitors platform or console. Usually things like gaurantee for exclusive content to their platform; gag orders on when said content - if even allowed - will be released to other platforms or consoles; priority on patches for their glitches rather than more serious ones that exist on other platforms; or even something as simple as providing another game that will be an exclusive first launch. Before you say that they shouldn't sign said contracts, at the end of the day, their Studio is a company that has a responsibility to recoup costs and pay wages to their employees at the end of the day. Even if they know it will lead to bad publicity and may even hurt future sales, they need to lock on the best chance for sales for today if they wish to survive. It may bother them, they may be personally against it, but they have to sign it because the majority of the industry - thus the majority of places where gamers can buy games - runs this way, so they have to abide by this situation because they are not on equal footing as say the bigger guys that can easily wait out on negotiations or move to an entirely different platform or console.

It doesn't excuse them, but I think when taken that into light, the fact they are releasing Little Children across the board is better than keeping it exclusively on PS4 or Xbox. They could have stayed exclusive to PS4 and Xbox and I have no doubt those companies would have prefered that, but I think they are trying to do the right thing in a tough situation yet again.

If you still disagree, no worries your opinion is yours and I'm not trying to change it, just making sure you see both sides of the spectrum before placing judgement.

Thanks, guys. You saved me some money with this thread.

i was sad too, when i got to know that TLO will be for other platforms only, and disappointed when patches were made for steam only.

but my point of view is still different: the game as i bought it (GOG version 2.2.0.6 or probably the one before that) was great. if they never did more updates or expansions, i would have been satisfied. if they're doing it for other platforms only, that can't be worse than nothing at all. as far as i know, it's easier (or more efficient in terms of sales) to make updates for steam and i've seen it with other games too. can't really blame them for that.

and now we actually got the latest version on GOG too. so again, i'm happy they did it at all. if there were no updates since the last GOG version and just this, i'd be happy. so i see no reason to be mad because there were updates inbetween for a different platform only.

yes i'd still prefer if they did everything here, too, at once. but the way it's going is totally o.k. the only thing that would really suck is, if we never got the final version (whichever that may be) here.