Greetings, fellow GOG-ians! It's been at least a month since I posted here.

I've been TW's universe admirer for ages, it all started when I was actually 12 I think (very appriopriate indeed), because of the most marvellous books of all time. 7 years later nothing changed really. My point is, I was debating TW2 story with my friend of similar interests (he didn't play games though) during recent night (...) when some interesting thoughts came up, so, finally, here I am.

1.Do you really feel like Letho achieved something essential (apart from his own bargain), was his quest necessary for Emhyr? To what extent? Silly question, you say. In fact, I'm deeply convinced, that's not entirely accurate. Okay, it's obvious – Nilfgaard's been preparing the attempt at invasion for a while and death of Foltest, relentless and quite solid king, makes it somehow easier. Shilard and Letho tricked sorceresses then (that's why the latter had to reach Loc Muinne), which makes the rulers of the northern kingdoms severely distrustful of magicians once more. Now, let's see the Iorveth's path.

Depending on our choices, we may restore an order in Aedirn by saving Stennis and we may also help Saskia, which will lead to the birth of the free non-human country. Yeah, Radovid V seems a little “lolwut” about it, but with Henselt's blessing and Saskia's passionateness we may assume that our fresh queen will get her own way. What does it mean for Nilfgaard? Status quo at the north? Temeria, the northern shield, suffers (as opposed to Roche's path) from partition, but apart from that? Saskia's Pontar Valley may be an opportunity for Valley of Flowers ruled by Enid, dependent on Nilfgaard. Wouldn't some elves fleet there, which will even slightly weaken the empire? Regarding the other kings on both paths with Henselt's first – Letho left his sideckicks to eliminate him, but he makes it there alive no matter what (granted we will stop Roche). So? Wasn't he that important? And Radovid? He seems to be out of reach for kingslayers. I don't get why Letho, being brought by Shilard at the summit, didn't make the most of it, meaning, just one knife thrown in a convenient moment? Furthermore, as books show, kings didn't need sorcerers support to oppose themselves while Nilfgaard attacked. Yeah, defaming them won't harm Emhyr's chances and will make kingdoms more vulnerable, but still – so much trouble, so close to remaining kings... Weird.

So, to conclude – do you think the emperor will honor the deal with Letho or was he expecting something more, like a death of someone else? Will Letho get his relatively satisfying conclusion?

2. Another things is – what the hell Emhyr is trying to do? A few years passed and they're invading again? Any ideas? He seems really desperate if he decides to slay the kings. Lesser evil, saving world this way? Or simply, “I'm bored, let's kick their asses?” I know his character from the books very well and it's really not his style to fight that way. There must be some reason...

3. It also strikes me, how CDPR is going to start TW3, when so many different things might've happened at the end of this story. I just love how Roche's path let us wreck a total havoc (leaving only Radovid alive), while Iorveth's shapes northern kingdom in rather solid way.

Agree with my sentiments? Disagree? Care to elaborate?

I think that's the most telling thing of all. TW3 inevitably has to start by downplaying the importance of the characters you could choose to kill or not kill to keep so as to not create a bunch of different political situations. Taking that into consideration, why is Radovid safe no matter what? Honestly, he's shrewd as hell, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's scheming with Nilfgaard for some reason beyond our understanding at the moment. Focusing the plot of the next game on something like that would mean CDPR wouldn't have to create a bunch of separate stories for each possible TW2 outcome.

Reminds me of that trailer with the large map where Shilard is talking about the kings, and when he talks about Radovid he mentions that he's gathering his army, and then asks something like, "But for what purpose?"

Nothing but a conspiracy theory, but I think it works :)

Actually I don't think anything has to be downplayed that much for TW3. In future games maybe, but not yet. TW3 will almost certainly take place in Nilfgaard, far away from the first 2 games. The consequences of our actions won't be all that telling down there.

That's exactly why I'm hoping for a TW2 expansion that would shape up the ending a bit better. We are left with way, way too many choices with current ending(s) and it would suck if they just ignored them and gave us a new "default" beginning.

What is implied in your post is perfectly possible, although, wouldn't it be the other way around? Maybe Radovid is supposed to be the main defender in the face of invasion? Thing is, Henselt in books was prone to backstab his allies and pact with Nilfgaard. And still, kingslayers tried to kill him... Weird. It would be a great twist for TW3, if it will turn out to be a wrong choice to let him live in TW2 because he will betray again. I mean, it's never right or wrong, especially there is also Roche's conscience etc. to be considered, but in political meaning... Who knows?

I haven't read most of the books, so some of my information might come from the wiki.

What Letho achieved:
1. Break of alliance with the sorcerers:
- What are sorcerers capable of? They seemed to play a big part in Nilf's defeat in the first War. In the first War for Upper Aedirn, Sabrina Glevissig more or less destroyed both armies with a single spell (a very powerful spell, nonetheless). So I am of the opinion that the sorcerers are capable of turning the tide of wars.
- "kings didn't need sorcerers support to oppose themselves while Nilfgaard attacked", I didn't read that part, but it was sort of by a twist of luck (an internal conflict) that triggered a chain reaction to Nilf's defeat. If the Nordlings had the backing of sorcerers, I imagine they would have an easier time defying Nilf's.
- After being massacred wholesale in Loc Muinne, the sorcerers might decide to just lay low, or they might decide to exact revenge. In the latter case, it would really hurt the Northern Kingdoms.

2. Death of kings:
- You speak pretty lightly of the death of the kings, as if finding an immediate replacement would restore order and all is well again. I would imagine that there would be utter chaos when the kings died and when the citizens hear about the impending invasion.
- Individually, the dead Kings, Foltest and Demawend are good strategists, invaluable in battle.
- More generally speaking, the death of Kings is a heavy hit on the morale of the army, esp. Foltest's, seeing that he was one of the heroic figures who led the Nordlings to victory against the Nilf. Morale matters a lot to an army.
- In terms of politics, there would be rebellious nobles who would probably withold their army or plot against the replacement (remember, it was the same kind of internal conflict that screwed up Nilf's plans). Even in the most ideal ending scenario, Radovid takes control of Temeria, Saskia takes control of Pontar Valley, there is still a lot of things to iron out. One cannot expect to assume command and to expect in the next second to command the army as if they were their limbs.
- In short, the whole Northern Kingdoms won't be functioning as a united front, at least not one that was as strong as that in the Second Wars.

3. Will the elves in Valley of Flowers flee to Saskia's state?
- I was under the impression that the elves under Enid are older, and they might choose to stay out of the war altogether for a few reasons:
a) Fear of Nilf's wrath.
b) They have peace and something closest to an independent state right now. At least, they're not getting persecuted (heck, all the kingdoms killed non-humans and incited pogroms because non-humans were suspected of colluding with the Nilfs)
c) They are not as bloodthirsty as the younger ones.
d) Given what the Nordlings have done in the past, they probably wouldn't so quick to decide and trust Saskia etc. It would take a long time to earn the elves' trust.
e) They would be betraying their brethrens in Valley of Flower if they went to Pontar Valley.
f) They have more to lose if they go to Pontar Valley. Think about this: currently they have a free state (not a perfect one), would they go fight and potentially lose all of that for some precarious freedom?

4. "So much trouble, so close to remaining kings"
a) It's not much trouble for Emhyr at all, he gets Letho started, and Letho just finishes up the rest while he sits in Nilfgaardian empire and prepares his army.
b) But you must be saying why would Letho go through so much trouble to defaming the sorcerers? You missed the point. The whole point is to seed chaos and discord among the Nordlings (mentioned in Letho's speech), not to accrue the highest possible body count.
c) Letho not killing the kings? If he had killed the kings, would he survive the scenario unscathed, he might get a few more but he would probably be overpowered by the soldiers sooner or later. But the most important thing is, that's not his main objective, killing the kings was just a means to his objective.

Not sure about Radovid. He might be next in the hit list if the Henselt assassination succeeds.

Hence I conclude that by employing Letho, the great Spice Merchant has effectively weakened the Nordlings while putting minimal effort.

2. I don't really know what his motives are, but slaying the kings is not "desperate", it's brilliant.

3. Probably how 227 described it, reducing the secondary characters to the figurative backseat. Unless they really want to start the game with a minimum of 4 initial states, I mean the engine might be super awesome at all, but I'm not sure if you can cover all the branches when you already have so many significantly different starting point.

That's all. Phew, I'm tired.

But the Northern Kingdoms had to join together just to stop Nilfgaard last time, didn't they? If the plan was to all join together to fight them off again with Radovid taking the lead, they would have been more united and not distracted by smaller things like Foltest was. I think it's unlikely any of the other kings knew anything, honestly.

Which then makes Radovid's actions even stranger. The only possible explanations I can think of is that he's either working with Nilfgaard, or knew about their plans and allowed Nilf to succeed in causing chaos so that he could have an excuse to expand his rule and unite the Northern Kingdoms under his banner against Nilfgaard. That one makes a bit of sense, too--it's like an invasion of the neighboring areas, but with the added goodwill that comes from protecting the people. It would be kind of brilliant and befitting of his character, and I really hope that's what's going on :)

I think because we have so many choices, it will have to wait until the next game. CD Projekt RED really wants to create the ultimate RPG, and I'm sure it pained them to demand some things to remain a certain way carrying to the next game. I have a feeling it will be like Mass Effect 2 where a saved file will load what you did last time, or you can alter them. Honestly, I wouldn't like to see them make an xpac just so that we can default certain things. Believe me, I want MOAR WITCHERZ NAO, but I want them to create what they imagine.

I just think it would be easier, for them, to make a game with a cleaner start. There are so, so many choices right now and I imagine you wouldn't get to see half of what they made in theoretical TW3 unless you played TW2 five times and loaded all of the saves. Maybe I'm just imagining there's more than there actually is, who knows. For example, there's one and only one way to be 100% sure Saskia stays alive - and her fate was a big deal in my eyes, I feel as if that choice alone could change the game completely. But like I said, I'm probably wrong.

I also think there is more to Radovid than is let on. Radovid's an upstart, a parvenu. He's smart and ambitious, but it's only relatively recently that he's reclaimed the throne for his family. He still has to consolidate his power, and he knows it. So looking like a solid rock in a sea of chaos, with the support of the Order and the guardianship of the heiress of Temeria, makes him mighty attractive to the nobles who can raise and command armies.

I don't think Radovid had any motivation to connive at or aid in the assassinations or the discrediting of the sorceresses, but he sure as hell benefits by it and would not for an instant hesitate to turn it to his advantage.

[Henselt may be a cross between a jackass and a pig, but he got one thing right: Adda would not be accepted as queen of Temeria. That's why Radovid needs Anais.]

Doesn't matter if Letho succeeded or not because that dude dead

Oh my poor English, i would gladly reply in our mother lingua, but it's a faux pas.

Letho is, in my opinion, a happy cow - he doesn't mind if he kills that man or the another man, Emhyr said probably something about the kingslaying with precision - remember the first target? Esterad Thyssenid, king of the most damn powerful and rich Nordling country. He's killed in the novels, but who killed him? Letho's colleagues? Another assassins? Speculations are brooding. Instead, Letho killed Demawend, the puppet king of the poorest country, a lackey and a fool. What for? Nobody liked him anyway and, take a look - after his death Saskia is buildin' up her wannabe enclave, Stennis is trying to bring the sh... stuff together.

Conclusion? Aedirn was incredibly weak and killing Demawend didn't help at all. Letho is, apparently, Geralt-ish in his political knowledge - Geralt was an ignorant in this area, baldie as well. Viper School will not rise again, I suppose.

Temeria's another problem. Here Letho's a lucky sod - Jewel of the North scattered around because the strong, good (effective, not kind and nice) king is dead. Only union with Redania, the strongest Nordling country around, can do the trick. Hi, Vernon Roche, rage more please. The man is so cold he could probably slit Emhyr's throat if he had an opportunity.

Kaedweni are backstabbing illiterate barbarians led by a hog and a doofus. Henselt could backstab anygoddamnbody, even the Holy Empire of Nilfgaard, because his thinking factor sucks with passion. Remember Sabrina Glevissig? Remember late Dethmold (hello again Roche, old bastard)? Why could anybody kill a moron king?

Emhyr is a brilliant strategist and a cunning plan-maker, he's too clever for such a fail.

K, we have Radovid, the king who slaughtered and maimed every regent while he was a kid. The man does not f*** with anybody. He probably gathered his army because he spied the invasion before. Why didn't he tell anybody?

Because profits. Temeria, baby! Who controls Temeria, controls the North!


TL;DR

Letho's ino politics just as Geralt is, Emhyr has a cunning plan, Radovid is your daddy

Whoa. Thanks for putting a lot of effort in this thoughtful reply.

First of all, I am able to perceive the kings as more than just the men (in this case). They are symbols, some order's affirmation or bind whose loss may indeed result in negative impact on both soldiers and civilian commoners, general country's situation. Maybe I didn't express it adequately, but I do know how much worse Foltest's death made situation in every aspect of his kingdom, how much his fellow servants might've lost.

Still, that's the only thing I would call the significant success. Demawend? It's implied by the writers of the game that he was a weak ruler without esteem and recognition. We know, that the reason behind Letho's choice was the will of framing the Lodge, because sorceresses wanted him dead to save Aedirn. But given that Aedirn did literally almost nothing during the last great war except for getting ass-kicked, wouldn't Letho do better by killing another ruler and framing them into it, since they conspire anyway? Forgery of the proof couldn't be that hard. Oh, okay. He also got in touch with Iorveth thanks to them etc... Anyway, I think that my point is clear. Plus, the other kings don't seem to have a problem with Stennis, maybe because they have a plan to use him or so, but anyway in terms of Aedirn's order I don't really see a problem.

If I wasn't aware of the kings importance, I wouldn't mention my surprise about not giving a damn about Henselt – they were instructed to kill him, they failed and no one seems to have a problem with it. You wrote: “The whole point is to seed chaos and discord among the Nordlings (mentioned in Letho's speech), not to accrue the highest possible body count. “ That's nicely put, no doubt and Letho achieved his goal to some extent, but I just can see Emhyr expecting more results and I wonder if he will be satisfied. Of course I didn't mean assaulting the kings in the middle of the summit – there must have been some convenient moment, maybe from the distance etc., who knows. Yeah, Nilfgaard can do perfectly fine even with every king alive, but I got an impression that Emhyr wanted a real chaos, maybe he could insisted on it more maybe? Plan was solid and maybe you're right about the effort thing, but on the other hand, what if Letho got captured? Presumably the witchers have some trigger to oppose interrogations, but even if, then magicians know the way of extracting some info etc...

Regarding Valley of Flowers, yeah, my bad. Enid was told to ignore Scoia'tael. Now when I think that the majority of the citizens weren't “the youngs”, it wouldn't make too much sense to change occupation. Still, another country against Nilfgaard which may attract the outlaws non-human isn't what the empire seek. Let's say, that northern kingdoms promise Pontar Valley something for support – some may be eager I believe.

It's all a matter of directing the story – if Lodge's framing won't happen and all countries except one has a trusted king, it can't be that bad, can it? Especially that we should consider something more – those 4 countries aren't the only ones. Queen Meve is also out there and who knows what she's up to? Meve's country may even eclipse Aedirn now and her fierceness is top-notch.

You're totally right in “Chaos” thing though. Seed is there and it grows.

(I will answer the others in a moment, technical problems here)

I feel Emhyr's decision to unleash Letho & Co. on the Northern Kingdoms makes perfect sense. Its the old "divide and conquer" tactic. And he has plausible deniability if the operation goes off the rails. "The Emperor of Nilfgaard employing Witchers as assassins and agents provocateurs? Surely you can't believe such a thing? Witchers are neutral and they're mutants, Who would put their trust in a mutant?"

As to how the aftermath plays out: I think Nilfgaard has seriously underestimated the Nordlings again. Hatred/fear of Nilfgaard will bring them together, Kings or no Kings. Radovid will play on this(especially to the common people-backing Saskia will score him a lot of points) and become the real power in the north. Nobles will have to be very careful about opposing him, with a good propaganda machine Radovid can spin opposition to him as support for Nilfgaard. Especially with a Nilfgaardian army parked next door.

And the Emperor will have to plan his next move very carefully. Nilfgaard got their ass handed to them in his last Northern adventure. His own Nobles might be leery of another invasion and questioning his ability to rule... especially with these troubling rumors of rouge Witcher assassins.

So TW3 could begin with a temporary stalemate: Radovid is consolidating his power. Emhyr deciding if he should strike while the iron is hot or focus on simmering resentments at home. And in strolls Geralt, who insists he's only looking for Yennefer and the WIld Hunt. Emhyr not pleased with him at all, still finds a Witcher could be useful in his machinations.

I think this scenario could be massaged to fit the various TW2 endings. But this whole thread makes me wish there were more than two Witcher books avaiable in the States :-(

I'm not sure if the Nilfgaardians have under-estimated the Nordlings. Not sure if you have read my long post on this, but essentially the Nordlings have broken alliance with the sorcerers, and even worse, they might have made the sorcerers their enemies for what they have done in Loc Muinne. While having a common foe unites people, I would say that the loss of their kings is both a deep impact to the morale of the people as well as to the stability of the kingdoms. No doubt that, given enough time, Radovid might be able to quell the unrest in Temeria. But the Nilfs are crossing the river soon, and I just don't think there is enough time to iron things out. Given the precarious situation, I wouldn't be surprise if some of the nobles choose to plot with the Nilfs.

Another thing is, whereas the Nordlings have been fighting and killing each other since the last Great War (War of Upper Aedirn, for example), the Nilfs have been lying in wait and accumulating power.

As to Saskia's army, there are rather un-/undertrained soldiers, not really a regular troop. They have a good leader, their morale is somewhat high, but their forces is not very strong (depending on which side you play, Saskia loses the war).

Now Radovid is a cunning and arguably scheming king. But to describe as if he's the bane of the great Spice Merchant is rather a stretch.